Any ideas about why my Spyder has No Crank - What gives?

[DriftBuster]

I've checked the threads for this, but didn't see anything that quite fit. New to the Can-Am thing due to back issues and need 3 wheels. I've had some issues with this from the beginning, simple things like 7 year old and worn tires, overheating due to bad thermostat, and waiting on parts and special tools for various little things. It's essentially been sitting since early May, but I have had it on a charger almost all the time.

Finally got it all buttoned up and took it for a drive. Then I had issues with no crank. Got that working for only one day, almost 2 weeks ago now. Zero crank since. I'm following the start procedure; turn the key on; wait for the startup sequence and hear the relays clicking up front; press Mode; see only the blinking parking brake, neutral, and oil pressure lights on; press start; and get NOTHING!

I've replaced the starter solenoid and it still doesn't crank. I shorted out the posts and it cranks. But I can't even activate the solenoid by jumping the control connectors with 13 volts. I've replaced it once and I have another that I haven't put on yet or tested. Same thing! There's 13 volts across the spade terminals, but that still doesn't activate the solenoid! What gives?

FYI, 0.4 ohms to ground on the starter.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

You didn’t mention the Kill Switch in RUN in your second paragraph. Being in STOP causes a “no crank” on a Spyder.

 

[JayBros]

Have you had the battery load tested?

 

[Bfromla]

Have you had the battery load tested?

& star washers biting the lead on the clean terminals?

 

[DriftBuster]

Have you had the battery load tested?

No, but brand new

 

[Peter Aawen]

No, but brand new

I've posted it before, and I guess I'll probably end up posting it again, but even brand new batteries can fail, ESPECIALLY if they weren't ever initialised properly before installation and given at least 8 hours of proper charging OR if they've been left on a charger/tender for any extended period!

Mind you, for once, I reckon a battery load test wouldn't be my first step here, altho I would normally be saying do a load test First, even (or maybe especially) if it's a new battery!!

In this case, from what we've been told, it'd be the second thing I did/checked, cos I'm with @Snowbelt Spyder on this one - this sounds very much like the Kill Switch is still in the Stop position, or maybe it's failed and hasn't actually clicked over to Run when the switch was toggled?? There have been a few reports posted here of this happening?!

 

[DriftBuster]

You didn’t mention the Kill Switch in RUN in your second paragraph. Being in STOP causes a “no crank” on a Spyder.

The Kill switch is in the Run position. The battery is now at 13.1 volts. Same issue with jumping it. That still doesn't explain why 3 starter solenoids will not operate when 13 volts is directly applied to the control tabs.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Yeah Drift. I'm intrigued why, even your spare "on the bench" solenoid doesn't appear to operate with voltage applied to the control coil tabs. It can't be that complicated. Either the solenoids you are using are faulty, the solenoids are not 12VDC solenoids after all, your 13 volt power supply is faulty and can't maintain voltage when applied to the solenoid, or your testing method and analysis is incorrect. The starter motor appears to operate normally when you jump across the solenoid. So forget that. When measuring the resistance of the control coil in the solenoid, you should get around 5-ish ohms. Where are you getting your solenoids from? Where are you getting your 13 VDC source from? In other words, if the spare solenoid isn't even working on the bench, it's not a Spyder problem.

I assume you can read an electrical diagram. Here you go if you ever need it.. Your 2011 is the same as this 2012 diagram. The download link is in the upper left.

2012 wiring diagram.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[DriftBuster]

Yeah Drift. I'm intrigued why, even your spare "on the bench" solenoid doesn't appear to operate with voltage applied to the control coil tabs. It can't be that complicated. Either the solenoids you are using are faulty, the solenoids are not 12VDC solenoids after all, your 13 volt power supply is faulty and can't maintain voltage when applied to the solenoid, or your testing method and analysis is incorrect. The starter motor appears to operate normally when you jump across the solenoid. So forget that. When measuring the resistance of the control coil in the solenoid, you should get around 5-ish ohms. Where are you getting your solenoids from? Where are you getting your 13 VDC source from? In other words, if the spare solenoid isn't even working on the bench, it's not a Spyder problem.

I assume you can read an electrical diagram. Here you go if you ever need it.. Your 2011 is the same as this 2012 diagram. The download link is in the upper left.

2012 wiring diagram.pdf

drive.google.com

2.8 ohms across the control contacts. I'm using a Milwaukee m18 battery with a voltage controlled jumper set designed to start vehicles. After checking for actual voltage, it seems it doesn't put out any voltage unless connected to a battery. I used an M12 to jump the solenoid on the bike, it cranked. Turning it on and cranking, and it starts quickly. So now just tracking down why it doesn't crank. Will need to use the wiring diagram to test the start switch, I guess. Anything else I should look at? Moment of desperation, I could get a waterproof momentary switch and wire that directly into the solenoid.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Check or replace the pre-start relay.

 

[DriftBuster]

Check or replace the pre-start relay.

Nope. Swapped out the headlight relay and still no crank.

Also, voltage to the starter solenoid control tab is only 11.48 volts when the battery is at 13.1 volts.

 

[SLemmons]

If it is not in Neutral, it will not crank unless you press the brake pedal.

 

[Snoking1127]

If it is not in Neutral, it will not crank unless you press the brake pedal.

I was going to point that. You beat me to it.

 

[SRBoo]

Weird things can happen to a Spyder when a rat or squirrel take residence inside the Tupperware. Sometimes, one system fails for an unknown reason. Perhaps strip the bike and look for a nest?

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Nope. Swapped out the headlight relay and still no crank.

Also, voltage to the starter solenoid control tab is only 11.48 volts when the battery is at 13.1 volts.

What we know so far:
- The bike is in Neutral - Check
- Your "test" power supply issue is worked out and the solenoids are working correctly after all - Check
- You ARE actually getting voltage to the control tabs of the solenoid - Check
- You measured control tab voltage - that should be the Violet/Beige wire - and you have a lower voltage than battery voltage. If you had your meter's common lead onto the frame to take that reading, then do it again with the common lead directly onto the negative battery post. If you now have full battery voltage, it's a high resistance frame ground issue, most likely the one under the seat.
- You can do a similar test with the Yellow/Pink control wire. This time, the common lead goes on the wire and the positive lead goes to the positive battery post. Power up, go through the start actions. Push the start button and you should get battery voltage to verify a good ground connection to the solenoid itself.
- Also under the seat, is the main fuse box. All power from the battery has to go through there. All power back to the battery has to go through that one frame ground fastened by that bolt under the seat.
So, if you're dealing with a high resistance connection someplace, that's a good place to start. BTW - there's a nut under that frame member for that ground bolt. You'll want to pull off the right side panels to access it properly when you clean up that connection.

 

[DriftBuster]

If it is not in Neutral, it will not crank unless you press the brake pedal.

Three dash lights, red parking brake, green neutral, and red oil pressure light. It's in neutral. Unless the indicator is lying.

 

[DriftBuster]

What we know so far:
- The bike is in Neutral - Check
- Your "test" power supply issue is worked out and the solenoids are working correctly after all - Check
- You ARE actually getting voltage to the control tabs of the solenoid - Check
- You measured control tab voltage - that should be the Violet/Beige wire - and you have a lower voltage than battery voltage. If you had your meter's common lead onto the frame to take that reading, then do it again with the common lead directly onto the negative battery post. If you now have full battery voltage, it's a high resistance frame ground issue, most likely the one under the seat.
- You can do a similar test with the Violet/Pink control wire. This time, the common lead goes on the wire and the positive lead goes to the positive battery post. Power up, go through the start actions. Push the start button and you should get battery voltage to verify a good ground connection to the solenoid itself.
- Also under the seat, is the main fuse box. All power from the battery has to go through there. All power back to the battery has to go through that one frame ground fastened by that bolt under the seat.
So, if you're dealing with a high resistance connection someplace, that's a good place to start. BTW - there's a nut under that frame member for that ground bolt. You'll want to pull off the right side panels to access it properly when you clean up that connection.

Thaks! You've got me thinking outside the components. Purple volts to ground, with battery charged, 11.64v. To the battery terminal is 11.65v, great ground.

Yellow to positive is 12.something when I hit the starter switch.

Therefore, issue is what I believe is called parasitic or phantom voltage, volts, but miliamps. I see that occasionally in house wiring. The power is coming through another component instead of a direct path from the battery. Now I need to find the origin of the purple wire. Or rig up a new switched power source to a clean source. While I'm at it, might as well wire up the USB port and volt meter there too. Any suggestions on a good ACC opwer source?

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Was that voltage purple to ground all the time, or just when you pushed the start button? I assumed it was when you pushed the button. The voltage when the button is pushed is what’s important. That shows that the prestart relay and button are working.

There are two ACC sources on the 2011. The one in the rear trunk that you know about. The other is up inside the left front wheel well, towards the top of the shock, inside of a rubber boot of sorts. It's designed to be plugged into a standard 12v power plug - cigarette lighter type - that would mount inside the rear wall of the frunk. It used to be a BRP accessory. But you can buy one anywhere and install it. Or you can just tap into the wires directly. On your drawing all the way to the right at P-24. They're not switched.

 

[DriftBuster]

Was that voltage purple to ground all the time, or just when you pushed the start button? I assumed it was when you pushed the button. The voltage when the button is pushed is what’s important. That shows that the prestart relay and button are working.

There are two ACC sources on the 2011. The one in the rear trunk that you know about. The other is up inside the left front wheel well, towards the top of the shock, inside of a rubber boot of sorts. It's designed to be plugged into a standard 12v power plug - cigarette lighter type - that would mount inside the rear wall of the frunk. It used to be a BRP accessory. But you can buy one anywhere and install it. Or you can just tap into the wires directly. On your drawing all the way to the right at P-24. They're not switched.

Voltage appears on the purple wire with the key on. Removed purple wire and ran a jumper directly to the positive post on the battery. Cranks normally. So searching out a switched battery source

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Voltage appears on the purple wire with the key on. Removed purple wire and ran a jumper directly to the positive post on the battery. Cranks normally. So searching out a switched battery source

Yes, I see where you’re going with that. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a phantom voltage when you turn on the key. Looking at the drawing, you have verified that the Start Pushbutton is working when you tested the yellow wire. Also, when you push the Start Pushbutton, you bring power down from fuse F12, through the pre-start relay coil to ground. The relay should energize, close its contact and bring power from F12 down to the solenoid through the purple wire. That’s the power that will pick up the solenoid and crank the motor. The phantom voltage is not relevant.

You can feel the relay clicking to see if it’s operating. If not, then it’s a relay or socket problem. If it is, but the purple wire is not getting battery voltage, then a socket connection or wiring problem with the purple wire. If you just are wanting to bypass the whole deal with a separate path through a separate pushbutton switch, OK. But that’s how it’s supposed to work. Keep in mind that the Start Pushbutton also provides a ground to pin B-C4 of the ECM, also. Good Luck.