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anti-freeze
- Thread starter princess
- Start date
Bob Denman
New member
Any of the stuff that can be used in an aluminum environment should be okay. I'm still running the factory stuff in my '10 model, but when that's reached the end of it's life I'll replace it with Engine Ice. I had real good luck with it in ATV engines over the years...
NancysToy
Motorbike Professor
The Spyder coolant specification is a 50:50 mix of ethylene glycol coolant (anti-freeze) and (distilled) water, labeled as compatible with aluminum engines. That type of coolant should already be in your Spyder...at least that is what it was delivered with. Plain water should never be run in an engine...especially an aluminum one, no matter what the climate. Electrolysis will cause severe corrosion if the proper coolant is not used.
Just go down to the store and buy some pre-mixed ethylene glycol (green) coolant.
Just go down to the store and buy some pre-mixed ethylene glycol (green) coolant.
groundeffect
Registered User
Bob Denman
New member
I had real good luck with Engine Ice; even though it's a bit on the expensive side. :shocked: My Grizzly 686 always ran much cooler in all conditions and in fact I rarely even had the fan kick on. I think that it runs about twenty bucks for a half-gallon size, and that's the worst thing that I can think of about it... :thumbup:
SpyderFun
New member
Not sure I would agree with you on this one Scotty given where is the electrical DC voltage coming from within the coolant system to produce the electrolysis process? :dontknow:
Not using distilled water can lead to internal corrosion of the cooling system thus reducing the bikes ability to operate at an optimum temp (runs hot) :chill:. The same is true if you do not have the proper (enough) ethylene glycol to water ratio.
opcorn:anti freeze
My daughter Suzuki also says when the antifreeze is changed in the motor to add bar's leaks. Does anybody do this?Not sure I would agree with you on this one Scotty given where is the electrical DC voltage coming from within the coolant system to produce the electrolysis process? :dontknow:
Not using distilled water can lead to internal corrosion of the cooling system thus reducing the bikes ability to operate at an optimum temp (runs hot) :chill:. The same is true if you do not have the proper (enough) ethylene glycol to water ratio.
NancysToy
Motorbike Professor
The engine is a component in a grounded electrical system. There is always a possibility for a small voltage potential across a vehicle engine. If you don't believe that it happens, read up on the Sixties Olds F-85 and Pontiac Tempest aluminum 215 c.i. V-8s. Lack of proper antifreeze turned many of them to putty. Land-Rover resolved the problem with the proper coolant and compatible cooling system components (no dissimilar metals).Not sure I would agree with you on this one Scotty given where is the electrical DC voltage coming from within the coolant system to produce the electrolysis process? :dontknow:
Not using distilled water can lead to internal corrosion of the cooling system thus reducing the bikes ability to operate at an optimum temp (runs hot) :chill:. The same is true if you do not have the proper (enough) ethylene glycol to water ratio.
SpyderFun
New member
I agree in part.
A properly bonded (not grounded) vehicle will not conduct any unwanted electrical voltage (I know this having been an aircraft inspector for many, many years for a major airline and for the military). Also, neither the military nor the airlines would use glycol if it was a conductor of electricity to de-ice the planes if there was an increase to the potential of an explosion for using it. I have never flown, nor would I, an AF plane that was de-iced with a potentially dangerous fluid that conducted electricity. Electricity + Fuel = BOOM!
Lack of proper anti-freeze, versus proper anti-freeze, could cause a corrosive pathway which is why distilled water is used (inhibits corrosion due to having no metals in it - used in batteries for the same reason). Dissimilar metals can/will conduct a micro current across them at the contact point provided the contact point is a conductor of electricity (an insulator like dissimilar metal tape or a non-conductive sealant is applied between the metals to prevent such currents).
Its just i have never heard or thought of the coolant system as a creator of the "electrolysis process" and I am still not convinced it is. We may have to simply agree to disagree on this one.
SpyderFun
New member
Is that to prevent a leak that isn't there? :dontknow:
There is an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". :lecturef_smilie:
If your ride is under warranty let BRP fix it right and by the book. Adding that stuff while it is under warranty may void a potential warranty repair unless there is mitigating circumstances that justified its use and that justification comes from BRP (potentially loosing argument to try to win). :banghead:
Raptor
New member
This makes sense to me. Anyway, I'm not going to tempt the fates; I'm just going to use the right stuff! And in this case it's the greeeeeen stuff!!
BTW, I've never tried engine ice, but I hear very good things...
DietitianBill
New member
In all of my track day bikes it was required to use water only, the only thing you were allowed to add to the coolant was water wetter. I never had a problem and I rode on the track for nearly 10 years. Your bike will run cooler with just water and water wetter over a mix with antifreeze although you need antifreeze if you're going to be riding your bike near freezing temps. I used to just drain some of the water out of the radiator before storing my bike for the winter, I also have a heater in the garage which won't allow it to get below 40F.
NancysToy
Motorbike Professor
Actually, I do agree with you...in principle. The problems that have arisen in the past are probably due to two major factors. First, the bonding on a motorcycle or automobile vehicle is often imperfect, due to corrosion and/or loose connections. These vehicles do not get an annual inspection like aircraft...and the inspections they do get are often cursory. The second factor was a result of design errors. There were not many aluminum radiators back in the Sixties, so the use of dissimilar metals, combined with a conducting liquid (glycol anti-freeze) promoted electrolytic corrosion, even though the metals didn't touch directly. I suspect there may have also been chemical factors involved, which became critical when the coolant wasn't changed regularly. Modern glycol coolants, designed for aluminum engines, have inhibitors to retard corrosion, and alloy radiators are now common. As a result, alloy engines are also common and reliable. By the way, by a "grounded" system, I was referring to the use of the machine parts to carry the current, not the proper use of connectors to bond the components together electrically. Most engines frames, etc., are used as electrical conductors. Any resistance in the circuit (at a connection or fastener) can cause a minute potential across the circuit. It should also be pointed out that few land vehicle owners ever used distilled water in their cooling systems.
All I really know is that the manufacturers learned their lessons. They now specify the use of the proper coolant, and they use compatible materials in their design. The 215 alloy V-8 is still going strong due to these changes. I would not go against BRP's recommendations unless I was prepared to deal with the possible loss of warranty coverage, and I had a specific problem to solve, that BRP was unable to resolve...like severe overheating.
WackyDan
New member
Do not add any stop leak junk. The way to fix a leak, is to fix it right. Plus, if you don't have a leak, why add that crap?
Same goes for engine oil flush products, and steering pump stop leak, etc... They might be good for saving you on the side of the road someday, but they typically cause more problems then the one they try to solve. The only additive I ever put in any of my vehicles is a quality injector cleaner - and that is only one tank before I change the oil. The Spyder gets a dose of fuel stabilizer in the winter.
MMcc
New member
Electrolysis
f
As an electrochemical engineer (ret) I would like to correct a few simple misunderstandings.
1. Distilled water does not inhibit corrosion. It does have conductive ions present so it can conduct a small amount of electricity. Deionized water has very few ions (charged atoms) so it's ability to conduct electricity is even less than distilled water. Now for the kicker. If you would use distilled water or deionized water only in your system you will attack the aluminum very quickly. This is because aluminum is a very active metal. Piping for deionized water (DI water) is made of plastic or glass. Any metal pipe will dissolve rapidly in pure DI water. Anti-freeze specified for aluminum systems contains chemical inhibitors (silicates) that coat the active metal surface and reduce the natural corrosion reaction.
2. You should not use tap water in your radiator because the minerals it contains will tie-up the other components in the antifreeze that are there to protect the internal component surfaces. When these additives have been used up corrosion can occur.
3. Dissimilar metals although not touching each other can still set up an electrolytic or galvanic cell. The two metals simply form a battery under the right conditions. If you take a piece of zinc and a piece of copper and stick each one into a lemon then connect a wire from one metal to a flashlight bulb base and a piece of wire from the other metal to the central contact of the bulb it will light. You have made a battery. All you need is two dissimilar metals, an aqueous electrolyte (lemon juice) where ions can move and two wires where electrons can flow. The zinc being more active than the copper corrodes in the electrolyte and gives up 2 electrons. These electrons move in the wires and bulb continuing in the external circuit to the copper where the 2 electrons are taken up by the copper.
4.Aviation deicing fluid today is proplyene glycol (RV antifreeze) a less toxic form of the old standard ethlyene glycol (antifreeze) mixed with about 8% water more or less depending on the outside temperature. It is heated to about 150 deg F minimum and applied/sprayed under pressure. As the % of water is increased it will conduct electricity. In your car it is mixed at a 50 / 50 ratio and is really a freezing point depressant. Pure ethylene glycol has a freezing point of - 13 deg C but when mixed 50 / 50 with water it does not freeze until the solution reaches -50 deg C.
5. Ethylene glycol is used in radiators because it has a greater heat capacity than pure water and it also raises the boil point. Polyproplene glycol is not used in automotive systems because when exposed to heat and air it will oxidize and form an acid which will be very corrosive to internal engine parts. Polypropylene glycol has to have very high concentrations of pH to prevent the acid formation thus reducing its heat carrying capacity.
There I am now off my soap box. MMcc
f
As an electrochemical engineer (ret) I would like to correct a few simple misunderstandings.
1. Distilled water does not inhibit corrosion. It does have conductive ions present so it can conduct a small amount of electricity. Deionized water has very few ions (charged atoms) so it's ability to conduct electricity is even less than distilled water. Now for the kicker. If you would use distilled water or deionized water only in your system you will attack the aluminum very quickly. This is because aluminum is a very active metal. Piping for deionized water (DI water) is made of plastic or glass. Any metal pipe will dissolve rapidly in pure DI water. Anti-freeze specified for aluminum systems contains chemical inhibitors (silicates) that coat the active metal surface and reduce the natural corrosion reaction.
2. You should not use tap water in your radiator because the minerals it contains will tie-up the other components in the antifreeze that are there to protect the internal component surfaces. When these additives have been used up corrosion can occur.
3. Dissimilar metals although not touching each other can still set up an electrolytic or galvanic cell. The two metals simply form a battery under the right conditions. If you take a piece of zinc and a piece of copper and stick each one into a lemon then connect a wire from one metal to a flashlight bulb base and a piece of wire from the other metal to the central contact of the bulb it will light. You have made a battery. All you need is two dissimilar metals, an aqueous electrolyte (lemon juice) where ions can move and two wires where electrons can flow. The zinc being more active than the copper corrodes in the electrolyte and gives up 2 electrons. These electrons move in the wires and bulb continuing in the external circuit to the copper where the 2 electrons are taken up by the copper.
4.Aviation deicing fluid today is proplyene glycol (RV antifreeze) a less toxic form of the old standard ethlyene glycol (antifreeze) mixed with about 8% water more or less depending on the outside temperature. It is heated to about 150 deg F minimum and applied/sprayed under pressure. As the % of water is increased it will conduct electricity. In your car it is mixed at a 50 / 50 ratio and is really a freezing point depressant. Pure ethylene glycol has a freezing point of - 13 deg C but when mixed 50 / 50 with water it does not freeze until the solution reaches -50 deg C.
5. Ethylene glycol is used in radiators because it has a greater heat capacity than pure water and it also raises the boil point. Polyproplene glycol is not used in automotive systems because when exposed to heat and air it will oxidize and form an acid which will be very corrosive to internal engine parts. Polypropylene glycol has to have very high concentrations of pH to prevent the acid formation thus reducing its heat carrying capacity.
There I am now off my soap box. MMcc
Last edited:
Bob Denman
New member
Holy Moly! :clap: A fan-dang-tastic amount of great information! :2thumbs:
(I can't wait to try the lemon thing this weekend now...) :shemademe_smilie::shocked:
(I can't wait to try the lemon thing this weekend now...) :shemademe_smilie::shocked:
Raptor
New member
I know. I'm tellin ya, these guys are good!! :thumbup:
project.618
New member
topping off antifreeze
I had a 2008 spyder & it was hard to get the reservoir cap for antifreeze on & off , now I purchased a 2012 rts spyder & it is even harder to remove the cap , add the antifreeze , & put the cap back on & I have small hands , in fact I still don't have the cap back on after two hours , how much of the bike am I going to have to take apart to put the radiator cap back on?? Come on BRP get your act together if you want to sell motorcycles & make your bikes more mechanic friendly. Thanks
I had a 2008 spyder & it was hard to get the reservoir cap for antifreeze on & off , now I purchased a 2012 rts spyder & it is even harder to remove the cap , add the antifreeze , & put the cap back on & I have small hands , in fact I still don't have the cap back on after two hours , how much of the bike am I going to have to take apart to put the radiator cap back on?? Come on BRP get your act together if you want to sell motorcycles & make your bikes more mechanic friendly. Thanks
ulflyer
Active member
Project618: Look at your cap where the two lips are that slide under the ridges on the coolant container. Take a pair of pliers to JUST THE EDGE of that lip and bend it up just a hair. Not the whole lip or you'll be buying a new cap, but jsut the bare edge so that it can grab on more easily. Did mine last year; works great.
