Why is the engine braking so Weak?! Should I not use Eco mode?

Roger -- sad about your injury and glad about your recovery.

The 1330cc engine is a sweetie. Within the constraints of its target consumers, it offers a fun riding experience for the more performance-oriented. In my experience in the mountain roads east of Descanso I leave my Spyder in 3rd gear and use the wide powerband of 4000-8000rpm. In that RPM range you get decent engine braking. I find a touch of brake as I begin my turn-in helps with traction. Just like your BMW the Spyder appreciates a smooth rider so you don't want to be so aggressive the VSS kicks in -- which is quite unsettling. Keep the front wheels on the ground and the rear wheel gripping not slipping.

ECO mode? Yeah I heard about that. Not for riding with your BMW buddies.

I agree with what Peter Aawen said.

While it will down shift while braking, you can also use your left hand to shift up and down as you choose.

Maybe thinking of it as having a manual transmission with an automatic clutch will help? :roflblack:

You'll never have the engine braking you had on the Beemer. Those 2 big cans move a lot of air every stroke, and the flat engine is a natural for fighting itself. Pistons are much smaller in the Spyder, and you just don't have the volume of air present in each cylinder, even though the engine is a couple hundred CC larger. You are also slowing down another 350 pounds of vehicle.
I agree, ECO mode stays off.
I loved my R1100RT back in the day. A fine machine with a lot of character. The only similarity between the BMW and the CanAm is you still get your wind therapy.

I have noticed that the engine braking is a lot better on my 2016 F3L than it is on my 2021 RTL. I am thinking it has to do with the tune of the engine and also the larger sprocket that is on the F3.

I think some people are not figuring in that the OP may be stating that the engine braking is not as strong than on his BMW. You can evoke higher engine braking by shifting much sooner, but this is not the same as shifting down the same gear, from the same speed.

I thought the same thing as the OP when I got F3. Downshifting from 5th to 4th gear at 45mph is a lot more aggressive on my Z900 than doing the same on my F3. There are probably a lot of factors such as gearing, belt vs chain, semi auto-trans vs. clutch etc.

Nothing wrong with it, but I'm thinking that those who say the Spyder has decent engine braking are enthusiast who are downshifting fairly quickly. I am not an aggressive rider, and like the OP noticed the exact same delays and nuances of engine braking. It just takes a bit of getting use to and for me, impacts my ability to go from 3 wheels back to 2. The Spyder has me spoiled!

:cheers:

RogerC60 said:

Before I get to my question, I'll give a bit of background. Until this past May I rode a 2003 BMW R1150RT. I love riding it on curvy hilly roads; it seems that all I need to do is look and think through a curve and the bike simply goes the right way. In May I suffered a spine injury that left me with a weak left leg, so riding on two wheels is off the table for the time being. So my wife and I bought a 2024 Spyder RTL, and I've been learning to ride it.

This past weekend I rode about 500 miles with my local BMW motorcycle owners club, mostly on curvy hilly roads in southeast OH and central WV. The advice I read on this forum about how to make the Spyder handle was invaluable, and I was easily able to keep up with my riding buddies on their 2-wheelers.

But one thing I really noticed is that I used the brakes a lot more than I thought I would need to. Rolling off the throttle on the Spyder does produce some engine braking, but it comes on with a 2 second or so delay, and then it's not very strong. I've read other threads on this forum and get the idea that engine braking on these bikes is generally pretty good. On my Beemer, rolling off the throttle gives me instant and strong deceleration.

I was riding in ECO mode and keeping the revs between 3000 and 5000 for the most part. Would I have gotten better engine braking in normal mode? Is the delay caused by the nanny attempting to prevent the rear tire from skidding?

Thanks for any thoughts and advice.

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Your RPM's are right on for what you are doing. ECO mode is not a good thing. I tried it on a full tank of gas and played the game. No mileage improvement that I noticed, distractions by always having to look "when" to shift. There are many threads about it, do a search, read on, and make up your mind what to do. I am in those threads also. :bowdown:

All outside influences being equal, high RPMs and throttle activation are the main influences on MPGs. "Eco mode" simply slows down the sudden throttle response, nothing more. I'm long past my aggressive riding days so I run with Eco on 99% of the time. Why? Because I don't recover from injuries quite as fast as I used to and because I enjoy squeezing every ounce of mileage out of every $5.00 gallon of gas I pump into my machine. Using engine deceleration for slowing down is something you (I) use and is like a seat-of-the-pants skill acquired over years of riding. If you like riding aggressively that's fine, but expect to pay for it at the pump and the Tire Rack and Not at the ER. Don't get me wrong here, Stage II is fun to let loose every once in a while. You'll pass things so fast that you'll never remember what they were. LOL Just do it safely and enjoy the ride.

Unless you are very high up into the rev range these machines have very little engine braking. You are correct in your assessment. Eco mode has nothing to do with engine braking.

I've found on Pikes Peak and Mt Evans Scenic Byway, along with a lot of other hilly roads, my RT has excellent engine braking; I just downshift as early as the situation warrants. It's my preferred method whenever I get stuck behind a cage slushbox driver who's never driven a manual transmission vehicle.

While there are other factors, this is greatest factor in a lack of engine braking between these 2 rides. I could not find a wet weight for the Spyder. Wet adds 53 lbs. to the BMW. I'd say it adds a fair amount more to the Spyder and the reason that figure is not readily available.

2024 Sypder RT LTD Dry Weight - 1,021 lbs.
2003 BMW R1150RT Dry Weight - 562 lbs.

RogerC60 said:

Thank you all for the replies. Regarding downshifting (and upshifting), I am doing my own shifting. The only time I let it automatically downshift is when I'm riding city streets or highway off ramps and am just slowing to a stop.

I did find that I got the best riding when I was in 3rd gear. But when the tach climbed up past 4500 I shifted to 4th. Next time I'm riding fast I'll use the 4000-8000 band.

Thanks for the straight scoop on ECO mode. Next time I start my Spyder up, I'll take it out of ECO mode and leave it there.

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I came off of 2017 BMW R1200RT to a 2020 Spyder RT and you'll love the Spyder if you do what you plan above. If you want to let the ponies rip with less throttle twist, look at the Pedal Commander from BajaRon.

I hate ECO mode and have never used it. It makes anything that uses it very sluggish in response. As far as the braking part, I'm not sure how you're braking, whether it be a hard stop, or one where you're rolling up on a stop sign; but I personally do what the conditions ask of me, meaning that I downshift manually at times, but most other times I let the bike do it. I'm not hard on the brake, so I have & use both options depending on the circumstances.

Several factors were already pointed out in this thread that contribute to lack of engine braking.

I don't think anybody even mentioned the wet clutch, which does not engage until well above idle speed. It works very much like a car automatic transmission with a torque converter. It will sit there, in gear at idle, at a stop light with barely any, if any at all, forward creep. Just a light touch on the brake will keep it stationary on level surfaces. That is a lot like the automobile automatic with torque converter.

Now for anybody who has driven both, compare the automobile 4 speed transmission with a full lock-up clutch to the automatic with the torque converter when you let off the power. The 4 speed with a clutch will almost give you whiplash when you take it up close to red-line and then let off the power, as it is directly connected between the engine and the drive wheels. There is no slack for a torque converter to take up any shock or allow any continued rolling on forward. The 4 speed with the locking up clutch does not have any slack or allowance for gradual slowing. It is the same with the wet clutch and the auto shift of the Spyders. If the Spyder can sit still in gear at idle, then there is some slack and allowance for gradual engine braking, while the direct geared transmission bikes with a locking clutch, (whether it be wet or dry), will be taking full advantage of engine braking.

It has nothing to do with the difference in street motorcycles, but there were, and maybe still are, some experiments going on with a system something like the Jake Brake of heavy trucks. I am out of the loop now and don't keep up with everything going on, but at one time there was some experimentation on a system to cut the fuel injection on some racing engine applications. With the wheels driving the engine, instead of the other way around, cutting the fuel injection would have the effect of the engine compressing and then releasing just air, without any added driving force of firing by the engine. I'm sure everybody has seen the signs coming into small towns with 35 MPH limits after a long stretch of 65 or 70 MPH open highway, "NO JAKE BRAKES IN TOWN", "NO ENGINE BRAKING IN CITY LIMITS", usually accompanied by some 3 digit fines for waking up a sleepy little town at 3 AM with the Jake Brake to slow an 80,000 pound truck down to 35 MPH. The Jake Brake is really useful to have in the mountains coming down from the high passes with a heavy truck to keep from burning brakes off and rolling on with no way to slow down.

Additional information on the Spyder clutch and shifter operation;

Can-Am Spyder Paddle Shift (Semi-Automatic):

• Mechanism: This system uses a conventional manual gearbox. Instead of a clutch lever and foot shifter, an electronic system controls the clutch and gear selection via paddle shifters.
• Clutch Operation: The clutch is operated automatically by the system, often using oil pressure and control solenoids. Older models used a centrifugal clutch for engagement. This means no manual clutch operation by the rider is required.
• Shifting: The rider manually selects upshifts using the paddle shifter. The system automatically downshifts as the Spyder slows down.
• Feel: Because it's based on a manual gearbox, the Spyder's transmission offers a more direct mechanical connection and can feel more "raw" and engaging compared to a traditional automatic.

Traditional Automatic Transmission with Torque Converter:

• Mechanism: These transmissions use a torque converter to transmit power from the engine to the transmission, eliminating the need for a mechanical clutch.
• Shifting: The transmission automatically shifts gears based on factors like engine speed, throttle input, and load. The driver typically has no direct control over gear selection, although some modern automatics offer a manual mode with paddle shifters.
• Feel: Torque converters provide smooth shifts and a seamless driving experience, but can sometimes feel less connected to the engine compared to manual or semi-automatic transmissions.

RogerC60 said:

Before I get to my question, I'll give a bit of background. Until this past May I rode a 2003 BMW R1150RT. I love riding it on curvy hilly roads; it seems that all I need to do is look and think through a curve and the bike simply goes the right way. In May I suffered a spine injury that left me with a weak left leg, so riding on two wheels is off the table for the time being. So my wife and I bought a 2024 Spyder RTL, and I've been learning to ride it.

This past weekend I rode about 500 miles with my local BMW motorcycle owners club, mostly on curvy hilly roads in southeast OH and central WV. The advice I read on this forum about how to make the Spyder handle was invaluable, and I was easily able to keep up with my riding buddies on their 2-wheelers.

But one thing I really noticed is that I used the brakes a lot more than I thought I would need to. Rolling off the throttle on the Spyder does produce some engine braking, but it comes on with a 2 second or so delay, and then it's not very strong. I've read other threads on this forum and get the idea that engine braking on these bikes is generally pretty good. On my Beemer, rolling off the throttle gives me instant and strong deceleration.

I was riding in ECO mode and keeping the revs between 3000 and 5000 for the most part. Would I have gotten better engine braking in normal mode? Is the delay caused by the nanny attempting to prevent the rear tire from skidding?

Thanks for any thoughts and advice.

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Your sig line.
2024 Spyder RT LTD (corrected the spelling of Spyder)
2003 BMW R1150RT

Not in the same class!!!

Maybe a F3 would have been a better choice. I have two 2018 RTLs and ride a bit aggressively for my age (I am from the war baby generation). However, I know I have nice touring rigs, not sport bikes. I do not do a lot of paddle down shifting and I keep the RPM high when having fun. I like going into corners slower and coming out hot, with body down and forward to the inside, looking to where I want to go. At 6'2" (down from 6'4" when I was young) and weighing in at 230 or so in riding gear, I can move a fair amount of weight around on the Trike.