Why is the engine braking so Weak?! Should I not use Eco mode?

[RogerC60]

Before I get to my question, I'll give a bit of background. Until this past May I rode a 2003 BMW R1150RT. I love riding it on curvy hilly roads; it seems that all I need to do is look and think through a curve and the bike simply goes the right way. In May I suffered a spine injury that left me with a weak left leg, so riding on two wheels is off the table for the time being. So my wife and I bought a 2024 Spyder RTL, and I've been learning to ride it.

This past weekend I rode about 500 miles with my local BMW motorcycle owners club, mostly on curvy hilly roads in southeast OH and central WV. The advice I read on this forum about how to make the Spyder handle was invaluable, and I was easily able to keep up with my riding buddies on their 2-wheelers.

But one thing I really noticed is that I used the brakes a lot more than I thought I would need to. Rolling off the throttle on the Spyder does produce some engine braking, but it comes on with a 2 second or so delay, and then it's not very strong. I've read other threads on this forum and get the idea that engine braking on these bikes is generally pretty good. On my Beemer, rolling off the throttle gives me instant and strong deceleration.

I was riding in ECO mode and keeping the revs between 3000 and 5000 for the most part. Would I have gotten better engine braking in normal mode? Is the delay caused by the nanny attempting to prevent the rear tire from skidding?

Thanks for any thoughts and advice.

 

[BertRemington]

Roger -- sad about your injury and glad about your recovery.

The 1330cc engine is a sweetie. Within the constraints of its target consumers, it offers a fun riding experience for the more performance-oriented. In my experience in the mountain roads east of Descanso I leave my Spyder in 3rd gear and use the wide powerband of 4000-8000rpm. In that RPM range you get decent engine braking. I find a touch of brake as I begin my turn-in helps with traction. Just like your BMW the Spyder appreciates a smooth rider so you don't want to be so aggressive the VSS kicks in -- which is quite unsettling. Keep the front wheels on the ground and the rear wheel gripping not slipping.

ECO mode? Yeah I heard about that. Not for riding with your BMW buddies.

 

[Peter Aawen]

The first thing you need to do is to turn ECO mode OFF, and then NEVER EVER EVEN DREAM of using it again!! :gaah: It's a cynical marketing ploy that some bloody minded BRP employee who has a really low opinion of Spyder Ryder's smarts thought might sucker some newbies into thinking it was a good idea for long enough to sell a few more Spyders! :banghead:

Then start using the full rev range at your disposal - yes, the 1330's are a tad lazy when compared to the higher performance higher-revving 998 V-Twins, but the triple cylinder engine has got torque out the whazoo right off idle and they are still a Rotax High Performance engine that'll rev out to well over 7000 rpm and it'll run those revs all day every day without blinking! And yet, before it even left the factory, BRP ALREADY choked it down a WHOLE LOT :cus: so why would you want to stifle it even more and waste all the potential performance that you have on tap simply to keep the revs somewhere in the middle of its potential range!?! :gaah:

And finally, you really need to start practicing manually initiating ALL of your downshifts yourself, except maybe when you're coasting to a stop at the traffic lights - you won't hurt anything if you get it wrong, the computer safety limits won't let you do that, but the reality is that the SE6's are NOT an 'automatic gearbox' at all, they are still manual gearboxes just like any other manual gearbox with a clutch lever, except that these hi-tech Spyder things have a computer managed oil pressure based hydraulic clutch teamed with a sexy 'quick shift' arrangement that enables very fast & safe gear changes, which also has an over-riding automated 'downshift of last resort' feature that's there to avoid accidentally putting too much torque thru the gearbox just in case the operator forgets to change down when they really should've...

So it's really just the same as any other vehicle with a manual transmission; you should be riding it just like you would ride/drive any other vehicle with a manual gearbox: - you should be triggering a downshift yourself as & when required simply by flicking the flappy paddle; and if you want MORE engine braking than the 1st down-change gives you, then you change down again, maybe even twice, or more!! :yes:

If you do all this, there's a pretty good chance that you won't be complaining about your Spyder's poor engine braking for too much longer. :thumbup:

Just Sayin' hyea:

 

[racoon]

I agree with what Peter Aawen said.

While it will down shift while braking, you can also use your left hand to shift up and down as you choose.

Maybe thinking of it as having a manual transmission with an automatic clutch will help? :roflblack:

 

[carbonation]

You'll never have the engine braking you had on the Beemer. Those 2 big cans move a lot of air every stroke, and the flat engine is a natural for fighting itself. Pistons are much smaller in the Spyder, and you just don't have the volume of air present in each cylinder, even though the engine is a couple hundred CC larger. You are also slowing down another 350 pounds of vehicle.
I agree, ECO mode stays off.
I loved my R1100RT back in the day. A fine machine with a lot of character. The only similarity between the BMW and the CanAm is you still get your wind therapy.

 

[RogerC60]

Thank you all for the replies. Regarding downshifting (and upshifting), I am doing my own shifting. The only time I let it automatically downshift is when I'm riding city streets or highway off ramps and am just slowing to a stop.

I did find that I got the best riding when I was in 3rd gear. But when the tach climbed up past 4500 I shifted to 4th. Next time I'm riding fast I'll use the 4000-8000 band.

Thanks for the straight scoop on ECO mode. Next time I start my Spyder up, I'll take it out of ECO mode and leave it there.

 

[blacklightning]

I have noticed that the engine braking is a lot better on my 2016 F3L than it is on my 2021 RTL. I am thinking it has to do with the tune of the engine and also the larger sprocket that is on the F3.

 

[broderp]

I think some people are not figuring in that the OP may be stating that the engine braking is not as strong than on his BMW. You can evoke higher engine braking by shifting much sooner, but this is not the same as shifting down the same gear, from the same speed.

I thought the same thing as the OP when I got F3. Downshifting from 5th to 4th gear at 45mph is a lot more aggressive on my Z900 than doing the same on my F3. There are probably a lot of factors such as gearing, belt vs chain, semi auto-trans vs. clutch etc.

Nothing wrong with it, but I'm thinking that those who say the Spyder has decent engine braking are enthusiast who are downshifting fairly quickly. I am not an aggressive rider, and like the OP noticed the exact same delays and nuances of engine braking. It just takes a bit of getting use to and for me, impacts my ability to go from 3 wheels back to 2. The Spyder has me spoiled!

:cheers:

 

[ARtraveler]

Before I get to my question, I'll give a bit of background. Until this past May I rode a 2003 BMW R1150RT. I love riding it on curvy hilly roads; it seems that all I need to do is look and think through a curve and the bike simply goes the right way. In May I suffered a spine injury that left me with a weak left leg, so riding on two wheels is off the table for the time being. So my wife and I bought a 2024 Spyder RTL, and I've been learning to ride it.

This past weekend I rode about 500 miles with my local BMW motorcycle owners club, mostly on curvy hilly roads in southeast OH and central WV. The advice I read on this forum about how to make the Spyder handle was invaluable, and I was easily able to keep up with my riding buddies on their 2-wheelers.

But one thing I really noticed is that I used the brakes a lot more than I thought I would need to. Rolling off the throttle on the Spyder does produce some engine braking, but it comes on with a 2 second or so delay, and then it's not very strong. I've read other threads on this forum and get the idea that engine braking on these bikes is generally pretty good. On my Beemer, rolling off the throttle gives me instant and strong deceleration.

I was riding in ECO mode and keeping the revs between 3000 and 5000 for the most part. Would I have gotten better engine braking in normal mode? Is the delay caused by the nanny attempting to prevent the rear tire from skidding?

Thanks for any thoughts and advice.

Your RPM's are right on for what you are doing. ECO mode is not a good thing. I tried it on a full tank of gas and played the game. No mileage improvement that I noticed, distractions by always having to look "when" to shift. There are many threads about it, do a search, read on, and make up your mind what to do. I am in those threads also. :bowdown:

 

[2dogs]

All outside influences being equal, high RPMs and throttle activation are the main influences on MPGs. "Eco mode" simply slows down the sudden throttle response, nothing more. I'm long past my aggressive riding days so I run with Eco on 99% of the time. Why? Because I don't recover from injuries quite as fast as I used to and because I enjoy squeezing every ounce of mileage out of every $5.00 gallon of gas I pump into my machine. Using engine deceleration for slowing down is something you (I) use and is like a seat-of-the-pants skill acquired over years of riding. If you like riding aggressively that's fine, but expect to pay for it at the pump and the Tire Rack and Not at the ER. Don't get me wrong here, Stage II is fun to let loose every once in a while. You'll pass things so fast that you'll never remember what they were. LOL Just do it safely and enjoy the ride.

 

[FrogmanDave]

Unless you are very high up into the rev range these machines have very little engine braking. You are correct in your assessment. Eco mode has nothing to do with engine braking.

 

[RogerC60]

I think some people are not figuring in that the OP may be stating that the engine braking is not as strong than on his BMW.

Yes, that plus the delay. I'll just have to downshift sooner to account for that.

 

[JayBros]

I've found on Pikes Peak and Mt Evans Scenic Byway, along with a lot of other hilly roads, my RT has excellent engine braking; I just downshift as early as the situation warrants. It's my preferred method whenever I get stuck behind a cage slushbox driver who's never driven a manual transmission vehicle.

 

[BajaRon]

While there are other factors, this is greatest factor in a lack of engine braking between these 2 rides. I could not find a wet weight for the Spyder. Wet adds 53 lbs. to the BMW. I'd say it adds a fair amount more to the Spyder and the reason that figure is not readily available.

2024 Sypder RT LTD Dry Weight - 1,021 lbs.
2003 BMW R1150RT Dry Weight - 562 lbs.

 

[RogerC60]

2024 Sypder RT LTD Dry Weight - 1,021 lbs.
2003 BMW R1150RT Dry Weight - 562 lbs.

Heh, that should have been obvious to me! Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[BamaJohn]

Thank you all for the replies. Regarding downshifting (and upshifting), I am doing my own shifting. The only time I let it automatically downshift is when I'm riding city streets or highway off ramps and am just slowing to a stop.

I did find that I got the best riding when I was in 3rd gear. But when the tach climbed up past 4500 I shifted to 4th. Next time I'm riding fast I'll use the 4000-8000 band.

Thanks for the straight scoop on ECO mode. Next time I start my Spyder up, I'll take it out of ECO mode and leave it there.

I came off of 2017 BMW R1200RT to a 2020 Spyder RT and you'll love the Spyder if you do what you plan above. If you want to let the ponies rip with less throttle twist, look at the Pedal Commander from BajaRon.

 

[Quickdraw]

I hate ECO mode and have never used it. It makes anything that uses it very sluggish in response. As far as the braking part, I'm not sure how you're braking, whether it be a hard stop, or one where you're rolling up on a stop sign; but I personally do what the conditions ask of me, meaning that I downshift manually at times, but most other times I let the bike do it. I'm not hard on the brake, so I have & use both options depending on the circumstances.