Engine Trouble - intermittently won't start! Any ideas on what to look for?

[Roadsterryder]

Hello all. I am looking for some information and idea on how to identify the cause of the problem I am having with my engine.
I have a 2010 Spyder RT, manual shift with about 45000 miles on it. It‘s been a great ride for all those years but now I am having a problem and I had to get towed home yesterday because the engine died.

At the beginning of the season (I live in Michigan) when I started the engine, it started right up at the push of the starting button, but then the engine died again. I tried again, but this time the engine didn’t start. I tried it 3 to 4 times but couldn’t start the engine. So I waited 5 minutes, tried again, and the engine started. Drove to the store, turned the engine off, did my shopping, and when I started the engine it started and died again, same as before. Waited again, and I was able to start the engine and drive home. So I figured after all these years I should add some fuel system cleaner to the tank.

Well yesterday, we went for a ride and I figured I would drive around 100 miles to get the engine hot and let the cleaner do his job. The engine performed great for about 50 miles, and then when I shifted down for a traffic light, the engine died again while I was slowing down. After several attempts, I called AAA to get towed home. Totally frustrated right now because I can‘t trust the engine. When the tow truck dropped me off at the house and after he left, I turned on the ignition and the engine started right up like there was never a problem.

I had a similar problem 2 years ago on my vacation. I went to the gas station to fill up the tank and that‘s when the gas cap fell down on the concrete. I didn’t think much of it and continued my ride. Later on, after several stops, the engine would not start. The conclusion at that time was that the gas cap cracked on impact on the concrete and did not seal properly. After I got a new gas cap, the problem went away, and that was 2 years ago. No problem last year at all. My wife reminded me that at the end of last year we ran out of gas once and maybe that could cause the issue I am having right now.

Could there be something in the fuel system that blocks the line intermittently, or would it be an issue with the fuel pump? I called the dealer I purchased the Spyder from, but I was told that they DO NOT work on bikes 10 years or older anymore…

If anybody could give me some ideas on what to look for, I would greatly appreciate it.

Rob

 

[Knizar]

Have you changed the fuel filter since you ran it out of gas?
How old is your battery?
Can you hear your fuel pump for a few seconds upon first turning on the key befor starting?
Have you looked for any codes when problems occur?

Check with @Snowbelt Spyder from Ohio, he is one of the best for why these Spyders tick or don't tick!

 

[mecsw500]

Check the battery terminals. They can back off over time and then nothing works right.

When you say it dies and won’t restart, what exactly does it do? Are all the electrics dead, or does everything light up and the starter won’t do anything, or does the engine turn over and not fire up.

The electrics are dead is sometimes the battery terminals corroded or no tight, or even a dodgy battery itself. Also check the negative lead where it connects to the chassis or frame to make sure it is tight and not corroded.

When did you last replace the battery? After 45,000 miles on an original battery it might be playing up and it shuts off to stop a very low battery voltage or amperage from causing problems. The electrics will just shutdown if the voltage goes too low due to a bad cell in the battery.

You could check the battery voltage both with the bike off and the engine running. You could get the battery load tested but sometimes an old battery will fool all the tests.

It’s got to be either fuel or the electrics. If it just dies and all the electrics turn off, I’m starting with the battery or a solenoid somewhere.

 

[Roadsterryder]

So this is my 3rd battery in 16 years and it's good. The engine turns over with the starter... no problem. To me, it is more like it is starving for gas. I can hear the fuel pump running in the beginning. And no, I did not change the fuel filter... I am just starting to check things over. I will take the covers off to see where the fuel filter is located.

When I start the engine, it will start up right away, but it's not making it to the idle rpm and dies, like it is not getting enough fuel. Right after that, it just turned over without starting at all, and I could swear I can smell gas after the 3rd time I tried to start the engine. Hours later, when I tried to start again, it started right up to 1400 rpm idle and stayed that way. I drove it around town without a problem and went to the hardware store, turned off the engine, did my shopping, and when I tried to start again, it was acting up again and wouldn't start. I waited 5 minutes and it started right up and I drove home.

I don't like to drive my Spyder right now because I don't like to get stuck somewhere. I will check for the fuel filter and replace it. And I was thinking to see if I can drain the fuel out of the tank. I don't know if something is floating inside that gets sucked in and starves the engine of gas. I don't know, but when I tried to use the cracked gas cap, maybe a small plastic piece fell inside the tank? I definitely think it's fuel related.

 

[Knizar]

Rob, One other thing, does it throw a code when it won't start?

 

[Peter Aawen]

As with all these odd things, if you don't know what it is, the very FIRST thing you should do is to check and load test the battery, looking for at least 12 volts (or very nearly that) under cranking load - even if it starts and occasionally runs, if the battery is not up to speed, it can cause these sorts of symptoms and more!! Our Spyders are VERY power hungry, and a lack of sufficient power to any of the computers &/or sensors could do odd things, like maybe stop the fuel pump, or possibly compromise the injector pulse, either of which might make you think it's a fuel starvation issue...

So check the battery carefully, make sure the terminals are tight, firmly fixed onto clean surfaces, the cables are good, and the battery load test shows at least something very near to 12 volts while it's being subjected to Spyder starting loads. It's a relatively simple, quick, and easy thing to do, and while it juust might show you there's a problem there you weren't even considering, if it doesn't and it tests out good, with 12 volts when/where it needs it, then at the very least, you will now KNOW that it's definitely NOT the battery - but without doing that load test and seeing your Spyder's battery hold near 12 volts under starting load, then any other troubleshooting you might do could be completely wasted time, energy, and $$, while everything you've told us so far could still well be due to a battery that's no longer quite up to the task, and that could be the case even if the battery is brand new/been on a tender/maintainer all its life!

 

[Bfromla]

Battery maybe not all of it, but definitely sounds like it's a part of it. Additional to the fuel filter, check out the vac lines on the 998 twins & the evap canister. It wouldn’t hurt to check the spark plugs for fouling & air filter for crud too. Go ahead & get a full tune up checklist for peace of mind & all. Sorry that your dealer joined the crap group (insert insulting jokes about the techs with <clean hands - never busted knuckles ect> here ). Caution on that 'five minutes between starting' test. You might need longer, as too short of a break can definitely burn the starter out quickly & discontinued 'new' parts can a big problem.

Good luck & please post your results. Sorry for the ramble.

 

[Mikey]

Have you ever had your plugs out, or checked, or the wires, hoses on your MAP sensor replaced - they are well known for cracking! Sounds like it's time for a good old tune-up!

 

[Roadsterryder]

Rob, One other thing, does it throw a code when it won't start?

No there is no code

 

[Roadsterryder]

As with all these odd things, if you don't know what it is, the very FIRST thing you should do is to check and load test the battery, looking for at least 12 volts (or very nearly that) under cranking load - even if it starts and occasionally runs, if the battery is not up to speed, it can cause these sorts of symptoms and more!! Our Spyders are VERY power hungry, and a lack of sufficient power to any of the computers &/or sensors could do odd things, like maybe stop the fuel pump, or possibly compromise the injector pulse, either of which might make you think it's a fuel starvation issue...

So check the battery carefully, make sure the terminals are tight, firmly fixed onto clean surfaces, the cables are good, and the battery load test shows at least something very near to 12 volts while it's being subjected to Spyder starting loads. It's a relatively simple, quick, and easy thing to do, and while it juust might show you there's a problem there you weren't even considering, if it doesn't and it tests out good, with 12 volts when/where it needs it, then at the very least, you will now KNOW that it's definitely NOT the battery - but without doing that load test and seeing your Spyder's battery hold near 12 volts under starting load, then any other troubleshooting you might do could be completely wasted time, energy, and $$, while everything you've told us so far could still well be due to a battery that's no longer quite up to the task, and that could be the case even if the battery is brand new/been on a tender/maintainer all its life!

Peter thank you for the advice.
One thing that I have forgotten to mention is that I have a Lithium battery right now.
I will have to attach my volt meter while starting.
The one thing that makes me believe that it is not the battery is that it died after 50 mile ride while slowing down. And then later on after I got towed home it started again without any issues…figure that. But I will like you advised get my Volt meter and set it to record and check the high and low voltage during startup.

 

[Roadsterryder]

Battery maybe not all of it, but definitely sounds like it's a part of it. Additional to the fuel filter, check out the vac lines on the 998 twins & the evap canister. It wouldn’t hurt to check the spark plugs for fouling & air filter for crud too. Go ahead & get a full tune up checklist for peace of mind & all. Sorry that your dealer joined the crap group (insert insulting jokes about the techs with <clean hands - never busted knuckles ect> here ). Caution on that 'five minutes between starting' test. You might need longer, as too short of a break can definitely burn the starter out quickly & discontinued 'new' parts can a big problem.

Good luck & please post your results. Sorry for the ramble.

Bfromla
2 years ago I installed new platinum spark plugs and a new air filter . I don’t know now why I installed a K&N air filter but I think I go back to original one soon. I guess the idea was that I just clean the filter without buying a new one. When I get to open all covers I will see if I can check all hoses for cracks and so on.

 

[Mrmikey]

If I were the guessing type, I'd say intermittent fuel pump problem, pickup, lines sucking air etc.

 

[Roadsterryder]

These are a lot of good ideas already and I will check them all out one by one. At will take another 2 weeks till I get to it but right now my wife’s birthday is coming up and I will have the house full of company. Trying to work on the Spyder right now is just asking for a lot of trouble ….
But you guy have some great suggestions . I will start with the battery for sure. I understand that my Lithium battery will never get a full charge because of the voltage going in but at least have 80% charge. I will post my findings for sure.

 

[Roadsterryder]

If I were the guessing type, I'd say intermittent fuel pump problem, pickup, lines sucking air etc.

I am leaning to that too

 

[Mikey]

If you never changed the map hoses, go there first!