2011 RS SE5 Won't start/shift to Neutral - anyone have shifter wiring schematics?

[Cadaverdog]

The solenoids are activated by current. For the forward shift solenoid, battery voltage is present at Pin 1. Pin 8 is open. To activate the solenoid, the TCM connects Pin 8 to ground to complete the circuit. If you connect a test light to Pins 1 and 8, you should see a flash of light when the solenoid is to be activated.

Did you test solenoid resistance?

Worked on the bike for a few hours this morning. Drained the oil and replaced the engine filter. I already replaced the HCM filter a week or so ago so I just drained the oil that was in the filter out and reinstalled it. I took the oil pressure regulator out while I had the oil drained. It looked fine so I reinstalled it. Checked the voltage to the solenoids. With the ignition on it reads 12 volts between pin 1 through 4 and ground. 0 volts between pins 5 through 8 and ground. Between pin 1 and 8 I read 12 volts. 2 and 7 12 volts. 3 and 6 12 volts. 4 and 5 12 volts. But when I check them with the tester it doesn't light. I tried manipulation the paddle shift. Upshift downshift nothing. Light never came on Between any of the pins 1 through 4 and ground the light comes on with ignition on. I couldn't start the bike because I had no oil. I'll pick some up tomorrow and try it with the engine running. Still have to redo the solenoid resistance test.

 

[DickB]

As per my earlier post, there is an electronic switch (probably a MOSFET) in the TCM that makes a ground connection to activate the solenoid. Because this electronic switch has a high impedance path to ground when it is off, you are going to see 12V with a meter connected to Pins 1 and 8 as you did. But it is too high of an impedance to activate the solenoid or a test light. (The multimeter draws very little current. The solenoids and test light draw a lot more to activate.) Your tests with the test light suggest that the solenoids are not being activated, which suggests a problem with the paddle shift switch or the TCM and not the solenoids. The solenoid resistance test will help confirm this.

 

[Cadaverdog]

As per my earlier post, there is an electronic switch (probably a MOSFET) in the TCM that makes a ground connection to activate the solenoid. Because this electronic switch has a high impedance path to ground when it is off, you are going to see 12V with a meter connected to Pins 1 and 8 as you did. But it is too high of an impedance to activate the solenoid or a test light. (The multimeter draws very little current. The solenoids and test light draw a lot more to activate.) Your tests with the test light suggest that the solenoids are not being activated, which suggests a problem with the paddle shift switch or the TCM and not the solenoids. The solenoid resistance test will help confirm this.

I picked up some oil on the way home from the dentist. I'm going to try it today with the engine running. The test light isn't coming on when I pull back on the paddle and push in on the reverse button but the bike will shift into reverse from neutral when it's running.

 

[Cadaverdog]

As per my earlier post, there is an electronic switch (probably a MOSFET) in the TCM that makes a ground connection to activate the solenoid. Because this electronic switch has a high impedance path to ground when it is off, you are going to see 12V with a meter connected to Pins 1 and 8 as you did. But it is too high of an impedance to activate the solenoid or a test light. (The multimeter draws very little current. The solenoids and test light draw a lot more to activate.) Your tests with the test light suggest that the solenoids are not being activated, which suggests a problem with the paddle shift switch or the TCM and not the solenoids. The solenoid resistance test will help confirm this.

I redid the test you recommended with the motor running. The test light came on and stayed on for a couple seconds when I did the solenoid resistance test. The resistance between 1 and 8, 2 and 7, and 3 and 6 was 3.8 ohms. 4 and 5 it was 1.9 ohms. Slightly higher than what the book said, but I wasn't using a high dollar Ohmmeter I could zero. Not sure what I should do next. I might remove the solenoids and see if they're working as they should. If they are, I suspect the problem is the HCM. But the fact it will shift from neutral to reverse using the paddle and forward (1st gear) to neutral with my foot on the brake as soon as it starts confuses me. Maybe I should try swapping the upshift solenoid with the downshift solenoid and vice versa to see what happens?

 

[DickB]

I redid the test you recommended with the motor running. The test light came on and stayed on for a couple seconds when I did the solenoid resistance test.

I'm a bit confused by this, as the test light is not used for the resistance test. Disconnect the solenoids connector, run the engine, put your test light on pins 8 and 1 at the solenoid connector that runs to the TCM, not the connector that runs to the solenoids. I would expect to see the test light flash when you push the upshift paddle.

 

[Cadaverdog]

I'm a bit confused by this, as the test light is not used for the resistance test. Disconnect the solenoids at the TCM, run the engine, put your test light on pins 8 and 1 at the TCM connector, not the connector to the solenoid. I would expect to see the test light flash when you push the upshift paddle.

I forgot to proofread before I posted. I screwed the second part up pretty good. I redid the test you recommended with the motor running The test light came on and stayed on for a couple seconds. (I tested all 4 solenoids separately).

I'm going to call you tomorrow. I think we're having a miscommunication problem. I'm disconnecting the 8 pin connector and testing between the pins on the female end. The output from the TCM. The same place the user manual says to do the power circuit test from. It even has a photo showing where to test it. If I disconnect the TCM connector the TCM is no longer in the circuit.

 

[DickB]

Yes, I screwed up when I said "TCM connector". When you disconnect the solenoid connector, you make the resistance test using the connector end that runs to the solenoids. When you make the test light test, you use the solenoid connector end that runs to the TCM. You do not disconnect the TCM connector. Apologies for the confusion. I will edit my earlier post.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Yes, I screwed up when I said "TCM connector". When you disconnect the solenoid connector, you make the resistance test using the connector end that runs to the solenoids. When you make the test light test, you use the solenoid connector end that runs to the TCM. You do not disconnect the TCM connector. Apologies for the confusion. I will edit my earlier post.

The shop manual I bought is confusing too. It tells you to unplug the TCM connector and the 8 pin connector to test solenoid resistance. If you disconnect the 8 pin connector and test the end to the solenoids it shouldn't matter if the TCM connector is plugged in our not. I checked it the correct way. The light lights up momentarily except for 3 and 6. The clutch circuit. It might not have lit up the first time I checked it. The bike was idling. The centrifigul clutch doesn't lock up when it's idling. Maybe the bike knows that. I need to find out which pins are which on the TCM connector so I can check continuity between it and the 8 pin connector. The one you're calling the solenoid connecter. I switch the upshift and downshift solenoids. I changed them in the Duetch Connector as well. But it still shifts into reverse but not into gear. I might mess with it again today after I ran some errands.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Latest Update:

Tested everything I could test with a multi meter and a test light. Found nothing wrong. Since it will shift into reverse using the paddle shifter, and shift from 1st gear to neutral using the paddle shift, but it won't shift from reverse to neutral or neutral to 1st gear the problem must be the upshift solenoid or the HCM itself. I switched the upshift and downshift solenoids. No change. I ran an oil pressure test on the HCM. It measured 270 psi downshifting. 170 psi when I attempt to upshift. BTW: I used a Maddox transmission oil pressure tester I purchased for $40 at Harbor Freight. The one the shop manual recommended was $180.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Latest Update:

Tested everything I could test with a multi meter and a test light. Found nothing wrong. Since it will shift into reverse using the paddle shifter, and shift from 1st gear to neutral using the paddle shift, but it won't shift from reverse to neutral or neutral to 1st gear the problem must be the upshift solenoid or the HCM itself. I switched the upshift and downshift solenoids. No change. I ran an oil pressure test on the HCM. It measured 270 psi downshifting. 170 psi when I attempt to upshift. BTW: I used a Maddox transmission oil pressure tester I purchased for $40 at Harbor Freight. The one the shop manual recommended was $180.

If my memory serves me my 14 RT won't shift from REVERSE to NEUTRAL either .... But it shifts fine frome Neutral to first gear ..... good luck ...Mike :thumbup:

 

[Peter Aawen]

This may help a little, or probably more likely, may not be worth a fig ( ) but have you seen DickB's originating post in the thread I've linked below?? Particularly the image it contains, which comes from the glovebox manual & refers to shifting...

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...found-this&highlight=Manual;++Reverse;++shift

Like I said above - it might help, more likely not pps: but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector... :shocked: :dontknow:

 

[Cadaverdog]

If my memory serves me my 14 RT won't shift from REVERSE to NEUTRAL either .... But it shifts fine frome Neutral to first gear ..... good luck ...Mike :thumbup:

That doesn't make sense. Reverse to neutral utilizes the same solenoid neutral to first uses. The upshift solenoid.

This may help a little, or probably more likely, may not be worth a fig ( ) but have you seen DickB's originating post in the thread I've linked below?? Particularly the image it contains, which comes from the glovebox manual & refers to shifting...

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...found-this&highlight=Manual;++Reverse;++shift

Like I said above - it might help, more likely not pps: but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector... :shocked: :dontknow:

My bike will downshift from 1st to neutral. It will downshift from neutral to reverse. But it doesn't upshift from reverse to neutral or neutral to first. It doesn't matter how long I hold the shifter forward.

 

[Peter Aawen]

....
My bike will downshift from 1st to neutral. It will downshift from neutral to reverse. But it doesn't upshift from reverse to neutral or neutral to first. It doesn't matter how long I hold the shifter forward.

Like I said above - it might help, more likely not, pps: but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector... :shocked: :dontknow:

So what happens if you DON'T hold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread? :dontknow:

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Like I said above - it might help, more likely not, pps: but it's probably better to know about this & maybe consider any ramifications it might have, rather than continuing to struggle with searching for a helpful diagnosis, unaware that your problem juuust might be related to something as simple as the speed/duration of your flick on the flappy paddle/gear selector... :shocked: :dontknow:

So what happens if you DON'T hold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread? :dontknow:

:agree: I just tap it. ... not push and hold it in .... While Drag racing the Spyder, I'm at full throttle and watching the revs. ... this has worked fine for me ....Mike :thumbup:

 

[Cadaverdog]

So what happens if you DON'T hold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread? :dontknow:

I'll try it but during the electrical test the solenoid was getting the pulse to activate when I pushed the shifter like I normally do. I don't hold it forward when I'm riding it. I tried holding it a little longer to see if it would shift if I did while I was testing it.

 

[DickB]

0So what happens if you DON'T hold the shifter forward for long at all, but instead only flick it forward for less than 1/3rd of a second, as mentioned in that linked thread? :dontknow:

My post only applies to a very specific case, not shifting in general. By holding the paddle a bit longer when attempting to shift from 1st to N, I was unintentionally invoking a double shift. But, since I hadn't pressed the R button, nothing happened.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Mystery solved!

As soon as I took off the front of the HCM, I saw it. When I manually shifted the bike into reverse from neutral when it wouldn't start the first time, I removed the shift lever. I should have removed the shaft. When I reconnected it, the hydraulic cylinder was all the way back. It should have been in the middle. I don't think I messed with the shifter when I had the shift lever off, but I might have. Since I took the HCM off the bike, I'm going go ahead and disassemble the hydraulic cylinder and inspect it. It doesn't slide from side to side as easy as I think it should. If I hadn't replaced the shifter and purchased the oil tester gauge, this whole ordeal would have only cost me about $60 to fix, but the paddle shifters are known to wear out and the oil pressure tester only cost me $40. I would have spent a lot more money if I had taken it to a Can Am mechanic.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Well, Dog..I’m just going to have to give it to you straight. I’m sorry if I sound mean, but except for the legacy issue of your center display not working, everything else has been self inflicted. It all started when you grabbed a wrench. It’s fundamental. You have to know how to start your bike.

I sort of owe you an apology. The damage might have been self-inflicted. I failed to mark the shift lever or the transmission when I removed the shift lever from the transmission. When I reconnected it, I trusted the gear shift shaft to be in the correct position, but it wasn't. It was stuck all the way back, as if the bike was trying to up-shift. I must have tried to put it into first gear with the shift lever disconnected. In my defense, I got the advice to manually shift the bike using a 13 mm wrench from a different Spyder forum. The user manual has it in there too.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I sort of owe you an apology. The damage might have been self-inflicted. I failed to mark the shift lever or the transmission when I removed the shift lever from the transmission. When I reconnected it, I trusted the gear shift shaft to be in the correct position, but it wasn't. It was stuck all the way back, as if the bike was trying to up-shift. I must have tried to put it into first gear with the shift lever disconnected. In my defense, I got the advice to manually shift the bike using a 13 mm wrench from a different Spyder forum. The user manual has it in there too.

I commend you on your "sort of apology" it takes a big man to do this publicly ..... Put this in your memory log "Snowbelt Spyder is one of the smartest members we have" ..... JMHO ....Mike

 

[Cadaverdog]

I commend you on your "sort of apology" it takes a big man to do this publicly ..... Put this in your memory log "Snowbelt Spyder is one of the smartest members we have" ..... JMHO ....Mike

I know damn near everything about there is to know about the HCM now. I know you can test to see if the TCM is sending the signal to activate the solenoids using a test light. I know which pins on the 8-pin connector go to the individual solenoids. I know how to swap the up-shift and downshift solenoids and change the wiring to the 8-pin connector. I did that to see if the up-shift solenoid was bad. It wasn't.