2011 RS SE5 Won't start/shift to Neutral - anyone have shifter wiring schematics?

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Let me clarify my comment. What I meant was they can be shifted like an automatic with a manual valve body as in you shift it manually without depressing a clutch pedal. My knowledge of car transmissions is pretty dated. And I was never a transmission mechanic. I could replace them, service them, etc. but I never tried rebuilding one. I had plenty of friends that were transmission mechanics.

That’s just not true either, Dog. Every time you or the computer shifts the SE5 gearbox, the Hydraulic Control Module momentarily disengages and reengages the clutch. You’d have to be pretty good at throttle blipping to jury rig your bike to shift without a command from the Transmission Control Module. And what do you think is going to happen when the computers see that the gearbox is shifting without a command to shift? Dozens of codes and Limp Home Mode. Maybe take a breath and learn how this thing works.

 

[Cadaverdog]

That’s just not true either, Dog. Every time you or the computer shifts the SE5 gearbox, the Hydraulic Control Module momentarily disengages and reengages the clutch. You’d have to be pretty good at throttle blipping to jury rig your bike to shift without a command from the Transmission Control Module. And what do you think is going to happen when the computers see that the gearbox is shifting without a command to shift? Dozens of codes and Limp Home Mode. Maybe take a breath and learn how this thing works.

Some of the other people who have chimed in said it has a centrifugal clutch. I had the rear wheel off the ground and manually shifted it into reverse with the motor running no problem with my brother holding the brake but I didn't try shifting it into first gear. My next step is to see if I can find some wiring diagrams. Even though none of the fuses were blown I suspect the problem is no power or not enough power to the shifting solenoids or the paddle shifter.

I had the spline worn out on my shift arm with my 2011 RT-S. It went crazy. Would crank then shut off or run rough, Would not go into any gear. The shift arm really did not look that bad but its soft metal. You can order a new arm from the internet. Good luck.
Leon

One of the first things I checked.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Some of the other people who have chimed in said it has a centrifugal clutch. I had the rear wheel off the ground and manually shifted it into reverse with the motor running no problem with my brother holding the brake but I didn't try shifting it into first gear. My next step is to see if I can find some wiring diagrams. Even though none of the fuses were blown I suspect the problem is no power or not enough power to the shifting solenoids or the paddle shifter.
....

They Do! The SE5's, anyway! But they also have that sexy and 'fully integrated into the computer control system, electro-solenoid operated, paddle-shifter initiated, quick-shifting gear change system', and now that I've looked into it a little deeper, THAT'S what'd make fitting a manual, non-computerised, jockey shifter so bloody hard! :banghead:

Not saying that it can't be done with enough time, effort, and $$; but seriously, you'd hafta sort out all the 'integration' bits if you wanted to avoid the trauma that Snowbelt warns about... :lecturef_smilie: And for anyone trying to do that who's not intimately acquainted with BRP's Spyder Computer Control Systems & all the various Modules; the ECM, TCM, HCM, & more; as well as their Spyder wiring & probably the CanBus too, then that won't be 'easy' by any stretch of the imagination or any definition of the word!! :shocked: And I'd also guess that if you decided to take the alternate route and head down the path of paying someone who knows the system well enough to do it in a workable manner, you'll probably find it cheaper just to buy a whole new Spyder!! :gaah:

Just Sayin' - now that I've looked into it, I really don't think fitting a Jockey Shifter would be in any way an easy option or a good solution to the problem you've described to us! :dontknow:

 

[Cadaverdog]

They Do! The SE5's, anyway!

Just Sayin' - now that I've looked into it, I really don't think fitting a Jockey Shifter would be in any way an easy option or a good solution to the problem you've described to us! :dontknow:

After further thought on the subject I decided to try to fix it properly instead of taking a chance **** rigging it and tearing up the transmission. I can put it in gear manually because the RPMs are below the locking up of the centrifugal clutch point but upshifting and downshifting above that point might damage the gears. I'm pretty sure the problem lies in the paddle shifter or power to the paddle shifter. I ordered a service manual today. Hopefully I can figure this out myself. I'm having a new transmission installed in my Dodge Ram and funds are kind of tight right now. I owe too much on my current bike to trade it in or sell it. Buying a newer Spyder isn't an option at this time.

 

[Cadaverdog]

They Do! The SE5's, anyway! But they also have that sexy and 'fully integrated into the computer control system, electro-solenoid operated, paddle-shifter initiated, quick-shifting gear change system', and now that I've looked into it a little deeper, THAT'S what'd make fitting a manual, non-computerised, jockey shifter so bloody hard! :banghead:

As I said in my previous post I'm going to try to fix it the right way first.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Still having troubles! Bike wouldn't start. Neutral light off. Tried manually shifting into neutral by rotating shift lever counterclockwise with wrench. Won't budge. Disconnected shifting shaft. Shifted into neutral by turning shifting lever counterclockwise with wrench. Neutral on. Bike starts. Tried reverse using paddle shifter with shaft disconnected. Shift moves forward. Tried shifting into neutral with paddle shifter. Shaft moves back. Reconnected shifter shaft. Neutral light on. Bike starts. Shift into reverse with paddle shifter. Works as it should, Try to shift into neutral. Nothing happens. Try shifting into neutral with wrench with shifter shaft connected. Won't budge. Disconnect shaft. Check fuses. Fuses good. Test battery. Battery good. Purchase service manual. Replace shifter. Start bike. No shift forward or reverse. Disconnect shifter. Check input. No electrical input found. Check fuses again. Fuses good. Can't find shifter in schematics. Does anyone have schematic showing shifter wiring? Engine light on now. Tried resetting by disconnecting battery and leaving off for a couple hours. Restart bike, Engine light still on. Can't see codes. LCD display doesn't work. Any suggestions?

 

[Peter Aawen]

Still having troubles! Bike won't start. Neutral light off. Tried manually shifting into neutral by rotating shift lever counterclockwise. Won't budge. Disconnected shifting shaft. Shifted into neutral by turning shifting lever counterclockwise with wrench. Neutral on. Bike starts. Tried reverse using paddle shifter with shaft disconnected. Shift moves forward. Tried shifting into neutral with paddle shifter. Shaft moves back. Reconnected shifter shaft. Neutral light on. Bike starts. Shift into reverse with paddle shifter. Works as it should, Try to shift into neutral. Nothing happens. Try shifting into neutral with wrench with shifter shaft connected. Won't budge. Disconnect shaft. Check fuses. Fuses good. Test battery. Battery good. Purchase service manual. Replace shifter. Start bike. No shift forward or reverse. Disconnect shifter. Check input. No electrical input found. Check fuses again. Fuses good. Can't find shifter in schematics. Does anyone have schematic showing shifter wiring? Engine light on now. Tried resetting by disconnecting battery and leaving off for a couple hours. Restart bike, Engine light still on. Can't see codes. LCD display doesn't work. Any suggestions?

When you say 'Battery Good', what exactly do you mean?? :dontknow: 'Good' is a pretty subjective term, can you actually put some voltage figures to that??

We are operating remote here, and our diagnosis/help can only be as good as the info you feed us! Actual voltage figures can help point us in the right direction, and do bear in mind that these Spyders are MUCH MORE power hungry than most other 12volt vehicles - a battery that might be deemed 'Good' on your daily driver sedan could well be too tired to operate let alone start a Spyder, and from the limited definitive info you'v e been giving us, this STILL sounds very much like a dead &/or dying battery - and even brand new batteries can be too tired to start a Spyder!! :lecturef_smilie:

I've found on quite a few Spyders now where the voltage during testing before, while starting/cranking, and while running dropped marginally below 12 volts, but remained high enough to be deemed 'good' for the average car, only these Spyder operators were experiencing pretty much EXACTLY the same problems you've described - sometimes the owner's local mechanic/auto electrician has re-tested and insisted that the battery load test showed it was 'good'!! However, once tested to reveal the ACTUAL voltages experienced under cranking and starting loads, when the Spyder battery is trying to start up a bunch of computers, electronic systems, lights, gear selection solenoids etc, etc, etc, AND turn the starter motor over all at the same time, such that the battery voltage dropped to just a little below 12 volts, the start is quite likely to fail!! Not on just one Spyder either, but on MANY Spyders now, and somewhat surprisingly, on waaaayyy too many NEW Spyders &/or Spyders with NEW batteries!! :banghead:

So can you put some actual figures/voltage readings to that 'battery good' diagnosis?? :dontknow: AFAICS, doing that can only help us to help you! It certainly could be an issue actually IN the gearbox &/or the clutch itself, but until we truly know that it's not the battery, pretty much anything else we can offer is just a SWAG! pps:

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

:agree: with Peter ..... to save time and money try this ... connect the Spyder battery with jumper cables from your car or pick-up .... leave vehicle OFF .... see what happens with the Spyder ..... good luck ... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Well, Dog..I’m just going to have to give it to you straight. I’m sorry if I sound mean, but except for the legacy issue of your center display not working, everything else has been self inflicted. It all started when you grabbed a wrench. It’s fundamental. You have to know how to start your bike.

Any SE5, or SE6 for that matter, can be started in ANY gear. If you happen to turn off your Spyder when it’s still in gear, it stays in gear. The reason for that is that there is no hydraulic oil pressure available to shift it back to neutral. There is no oil pressure because the engine isn’t running. You can push the paddle shifter all you want, nothing is going to happen, nor is it supposed to. You have to get the engine started again, and here is the correct way.

The interlock for starting the engine regarding the gearbox is:

Gearbox in Neutral, OR, brake pedal depressed.

So, if you turn off the bike with it still in gear, you don’t need to go running for a wrench. You just need to put your foot on the brake.

- WITH the brake pedal depressed, perform a normal engine startup.
- AFTER the engine starts, THEN hydraulic oil pressure increases. (the hydraulic oil pump is engine driven)
- AFTER hydraulic oil pressure increases, THEN the gearbox is automatically shifted to Neutral. You don’t have to touch a thing. No paddle shifter - nothing. It all happens in the blink of an eye.

It’s not a battery problem if you have enough battery to start the engine in the first place. So forget that. Let’s continue….

The left hand switch on your handlebars is a CAN Bus module, in and of itself. That means that it is part of the computer’s communication system. Most of the functions of the switch assembly just feed commands into the computers. Paddle shift operation is fed to the Transmission Control Module. It’s NOT directly wired - with 12 volts - to the Hydraulic Control Module. There’s no schematic for that circuit. It’s all CAN Bus signals. The only thing that is directly wired on that left hand switch assembly is the horn button. Well, I’m not sure about the headlight switch on yours. But that’s it. All other functions are CAN Bus.

The Transmission Control Module then operates the solenoid valves on the Hydraulic Control Module. The solenoid valves control the flow and direction of hydraulic oil to the hydraulic piston. One direction for upshift, the other for downshift. Plus, there is clutch operation that it also controls. Nothing happens unless the Transmission Control Module says it can happen. It’s all computerized. There’s no schematic.

The rest of your explanation is just about as clear as mud. You took stuff apart when you didn’t need to. We don’t know if it’s back together correctly, don’t know where or why you’re taking these voltage readings, don’t know if you have the engine running or brake depressed when needed, and don’t know what else you broke in the process. And it appears that you’ve blown up something additional given that you now have more warning lights than you started with. The very fact that you’re asking for a shifter wiring schematic shows that you’re way behind the learning curve with a long way to go learning how that thing works. You can’t get it all from an internet forum.

So, good luck with this. I’m too anal and frustrated to help any further. And maybe I didn’t help. At this point, it just needs to be hooked up to BUDS to see if everything with the Left Hand Switch, TCM and HCM is healthy, and to find out what the fault codes are. BUDS can test all of this stuff. I’m glad that you got a repair manual. A good place to start reading is Page 1. Sorry.

 

[Knizar]

Doug, Tell it like it is! I commend you sir for explaining how these machines work. Hope a few others on this forum will let your explanation soak in. :thumbup: Bill

 

[Cadaverdog]

:agree: with Peter ..... to save time and money try this ... connect the Spyder battery with jumper cables from your car or pick-up .... leave vehicle OFF .... see what happens with the Spyder ..... good luck ... Mike :thumbup:

I tried that. No change.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Doug that explanation was spot on ....however I think you might be :bdh: ...I hope I'm wrong .....Mike :thumbup:

 

[Cadaverdog]

When you say 'Battery Good', what exactly do you mean?? :dontknow: 'Good' is a pretty subjective term, can you actually put some voltage figures to that??

We are operating remote here, and our diagnosis/help can only be as good as the info you feed us! Actual voltage figures can help point us in the right direction, and do bear in mind that these Spyders are MUCH MORE power hungry than most other 12volt vehicles - a battery that might be deemed 'Good' on your daily driver sedan could well be too tired to operate let alone start a Spyder, and from the limited definitive info you'v e been giving us, this STILL sounds very much like a dead &/or dying battery - and even brand new batteries can be too tired to start a Spyder!! :lecturef_smilie:

I've found on quite a few Spyders now where the voltage during testing before, while starting/cranking, and while running dropped marginally below 12 volts, but remained high enough to be deemed 'good' for the average car, only these Spyder operators were experiencing pretty much EXACTLY the same problems you've described - sometimes the owner's local mechanic/auto electrician has re-tested and insisted that the battery load test showed it was 'good'!! However, once tested to reveal the ACTUAL voltages experienced under cranking and starting loads, when the Spyder battery is trying to start up a bunch of computers, electronic systems, lights, gear selection solenoids etc, etc, etc, AND turn the starter motor over all at the same time, such that the battery voltage dropped to just a little below 12 volts, the start is quite likely to fail!! Not on just one Spyder either, but on MANY Spyders now, and somewhat surprisingly, on waaaayyy too many NEW Spyders &/or Spyders with NEW batteries!! :banghead:

So can you put some actual figures/voltage readings to that 'battery good' diagnosis?? :dontknow: AFAICS, doing that can only help us to help you! It certainly could be an issue actually IN the gearbox &/or the clutch itself, but until we truly know that it's not the battery, pretty much anything else we can offer is just a SWAG! pps:

I took the battery to my mechanic. He's a younger dude but he already owns his own shop. He used a battery tester that tests the voltage, amps, etc. under load. I didn't write the numbers down but I had already hooked jumper cables to it from my truck and tried it before I had it tested.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Doug that explanation was spot on ....however I think you might be :bdh: ...I hope I'm wrong .....Mike :thumbup:

I admit I was being hard headed about not testing the battery when you suggested that when I first started working on it, but I did hook jumper cables from my truck to the battery on my bike, depressed the brake lever and tried to start it. Nothing happened. I took the battery out and charged it. Reinstalled it. Attempted to start it again with brake lever depressed. Nothing happened. Hooked up the jumper cables again. Depressed the brake. Hit the mode button. Turned the key, nothing happened. I tried manually shifting the bike into neutral with a 13mm wrench because the service manual suggests it. Before I purchased a service manual, I saw the same suggestion in this or another Spyder forum. The service manual also says to disconnect the shifter shaft if the transmission won't shift with the shifter shaft connected. After I manually shifted it into neutral and it started, I let the bike run until the fan kicked on. Shut it off and checked the oil. Which I do before every ride unless the previous ride was just up the street and back. While it was warming up, I reconnected the shifting shaft. Before I shut it off, I tried shifting it using the paddle shifter. Nothing happened. I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical that the battery isn't the problem if the bike won't shift with the motor running. But I still took the battery out and had it tested. Since the battery tested fine using a tester that tested under load, I figured it was time to start looking elsewhere. I wasted an hour or two trying to fabricate a manual shifter but after a little thought I decided to go back to attempting to fixing it the right way. Since I wasn't sure what to do next, I went ahead and purchased a new paddle shifter and installed it. Since that didn't work and I was unaware the paddle shifter didn't work like a light switch, I checked the plug it plugs into looking for input voltage. I was an electronics technician in the Navy 40 years ago, but technology has changed quite a bit since then. I assume I will end up taking this to a shop eventually, but I just had a new transmission installed in my truck. I'm a little short on extra cash right now.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Cadaverdog, I would reach out to " PMK " (a member here - lives in Fl.) He has been very, very, helpful to other members.... He has BUDS and knows how to use it .... good luck ...Mike :thumbup:

 

[Cadaverdog]

Well, Dog..I’m just going to have to give it to you straight. I’m sorry if I sound mean, but except for the legacy issue of your center display not working, everything else has been self inflicted. It all started when you grabbed a wrench. It’s fundamental. You have to know how to start your bike.

Any SE5, or SE6 for that matter, can be started in ANY gear. If you happen to turn off your Spyder when it’s still in gear, it stays in gear. The reason for that is that there is no hydraulic oil pressure available to shift it back to neutral. There is no oil pressure because the engine isn’t running. You can push the paddle shifter all you want, nothing is going to happen, nor is it supposed to. You have to get the engine started again, and here is the correct way.

The interlock for starting the engine regarding the gearbox is:

Gearbox in Neutral, OR, brake pedal depressed.

So, if you turn off the bike with it still in gear, you don’t need to go running for a wrench. You just need to put your foot on the brake.

- WITH the brake pedal depressed, perform a normal engine startup.
- AFTER the engine starts, THEN hydraulic oil pressure increases. (the hydraulic oil pump is engine driven)
- AFTER hydraulic oil pressure increases, THEN the gearbox is automatically shifted to Neutral. You don’t have to touch a thing. No paddle shifter - nothing. It all happens in the blink of an eye.

It’s not a battery problem if you have enough battery to start the engine in the first place. So forget that. Let’s continue….

The left hand switch on your handlebars is a CAN Bus module, in and of itself. That means that it is part of the computer’s communication system. Most of the functions of the switch assembly just feed commands into the computers. Paddle shift operation is fed to the Transmission Control Module. It’s NOT directly wired - with 12 volts - to the Hydraulic Control Module. There’s no schematic for that circuit. It’s all CAN Bus signals. The only thing that is directly wired on that left hand switch assembly is the horn button. Well, I’m not sure about the headlight switch on yours. But that’s it. All other functions are CAN Bus.

The Transmission Control Module then operates the solenoid valves on the Hydraulic Control Module. The solenoid valves control the flow and direction of hydraulic oil to the hydraulic piston. One direction for upshift, the other for downshift. Plus, there is clutch operation that it also controls. Nothing happens unless the Transmission Control Module says it can happen. It’s all computerized. There’s no schematic.

The rest of your explanation is just about as clear as mud. You took stuff apart when you didn’t need to. We don’t know if it’s back together correctly, don’t know where or why you’re taking these voltage readings, don’t know if you have the engine running or brake depressed when needed, and don’t know what else you broke in the process. And it appears that you’ve blown up something additional given that you now have more warning lights than you started with. The very fact that you’re asking for a shifter wiring schematic shows that you’re way behind the learning curve with a long way to go learning how that thing works. You can’t get it all from an internet forum.

So, good luck with this. I’m too anal and frustrated to help any further. And maybe I didn’t help. At this point, it just needs to be hooked up to BUDS to see if everything with the Left Hand Switch, TCM and HCM is healthy, and to find out what the fault codes are. BUDS can test all of this stuff. I’m glad that you got a repair manual. A good place to start reading is Page 1. Sorry.

Thanx for the reply but I did do some research first. When I noticed the neutral light wasn't on when I tried to start it, I assumed I forgot to shift the bike into neutral gear the last time I rode it. Maybe I did. Or the shifter didn't respond when I pulled back on the paddle, and I didn't notice. The shifter had acted up before. Assuming it was in gear I consulted the internet. If I had found the correct procedure for starting a Spyder that was left in gear, I would have tried that first. But I found someone on a Spyder forum that had experienced the same thing and recommended manually shifting the bike into neutral. So I tried that. When it wouldn't budge, the logical thing to do was unhook the linkage and try it again. I did. It worked. After the bike warmed up, I shut it off and checked the oil. It was full. Since a worn-out shifter seems to be a common problem, I ordered a new one. After removing a few panels and the console, I found where the shifter plugs in under the headlights. I unplugged it and plugged the new one in after fishing the wiring through the tunnel underneath the instrument panel. I didn't have to cut or splice anything. I seriously doubt I could have damaged it or anything else doing that. I doubt I could have damaged anything unhooking the shifter linkage considering that it's a part of a recommended procedure to troubleshoot shifting problems in the service manual. You assume I made the problem worse or caused another problem trying to fix it. The check engine light came on last time I started it with the new shifter installed. The check engine light has come on before for no apparent reason. All I have to do to reset it most of the time is shut the motor off and restart it. I know I didn't make it any worse because I didn't do anything that could have made it worse. That being said I have accepted the fact that I'm probably going to have to pay someone with the proper testing equipment to fix it, but since I can't afford to do that right now, I'm going to continue trying to figure it out myself by reading the service manual and asking questions.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Cadaverdog, I would reach out to " PMK " (a member here - lives in Fl.) He has been very, very, helpful to other members.... He has BUDS and knows how to use it .... good luck ...Mike :thumbup:

Thank you. I had to put a new transmission in my truck last month, so I don't have a lot of spare cash on hand right now. I can use all the help I can get or this thing's going to be sitting around collecting smaller spiders for a while. I keep it under cover under a pergola in my front yard. Spiders and other insects seem to be attracted to it. Especially those nasty looking banana spiders we have here in Florida.

 

[Leaping1]

I have a 2011 RT-S and had similar problems. My bike did all sort of crazy things. Cranking then running rough and shutting off. All kind of lights lighting up in the dash. My problem boiled down to a shifter arm that was worn. Double check the shifter arm because it is softer metal and could be causing you some of your problems. The shifter arm is around $40.00 +/- and it solved my problem. Good luck.
Leon

 

[Cadaverdog]

I have a 2011 RT-S and had similar problems. My bike did all sort of crazy things. Cranking then running rough and shutting off. All kind of lights lighting up in the dash. My problem boiled down to a shifter arm that was worn. Double check the shifter arm because it is softer metal and could be causing you some of your problems. The shifter arm is around $40.00 +/- and it solved my problem. Good luck.
Leon

One of the first things I did. Gear shift rod and shifter lever are in pristine condition. Splines on clutch shaft same.

 

[Mikey]

After reading and rereading this thread and all the comments made, if I was you, I would put it away till you can afford to take it to a shop and have it looked at. There is an electrical gremlin in there somewhere, and all you're doing is throwing parts, time, and frustrations at it. It could be as simple as a safety switch, bad plug, or whatever! BUDS will probably find it, or point you in the right direction. You have had some very good advice, by some very smart people here, and if you have followed what they said and are still coming up short, it's time to step back! Good Luck. I hope you kick that gremlin in the butt soon and get on that thing and ride it!!