PinkRosePetal
New member
Hehe..I think you're off on a tangent! Pun intended! Consider the force required to rotate the tyre contact patch to a new position for steering to take place.
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Laser Schmaser ?
- Thread starter 12tree
- Start date
Happy new year!
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
In the curve the tire contact patch is not rotating with respect to the Spyder, but it is with respect to the center of the turn. In this case it is one of the components of the friction force pushing the Spyder to the center of the curve. In any case the force to turn the wheels to begin the turn is minuscule compared to the force required to push the Spyder to the center, I say.
merlot
Member
i just tried this method and it worked a treat
i shoot front and back at 3metres then divide the difference by 12(i use 0.5m as my wheel width)to give toe
i have a fine line laser which is needed when trying to measure 1.5mm using your method
my method allows for a bit more error as i am looking for 19-25mm difference(1.5mm toe) which can easily be seen even with a fat dot laser
would work well for a confined space
russ
PMK
Active member
If it matters to anyone, these measurements of camber angle influence that Lindsay indicated were difficult to measure are posted below. Based on 270mm axle center height.
0.0* camber = 0.0 correction
1.0* camber = 4.71mm
2.0* camber = 9.43mm
The above offsets apply as well to when using a machinist square to transfer the laser line to the floor. The machinist square must be leveled so that the edge of the scale is truly plumb.
This assumes that the floor is more or less level and has local out of level areas where the machinist square may be placed.
This assumes that the floor is more or less level and has local out of level areas where the machinist square may be placed.
Last edited:
PMK
Active member
According to Lindsay, the horizontal laser, small base machinist square and so forth eliminate the issue.
I agree, the floor surface must be true so as not to induce error in the square.
The difficult item to understand though, is if small amounts of camber induce error Lindsay does not approve of, having a front wheel toed in or toed out a random amount will move the machinist square inboard or outboard, altering his base track width dimension. He then uses that dimension with incoming toe error to establish rear target locations.
As he says many happy owners and it is good enough.
Jetfixer
Well-known member
I use Powersmith PLTL320. Has dot and line generator and magnetic base.
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
How do you mount it to send the beam forward and backward? From what I read in the instructions the only approved mounting position is for the beam to shine to the left. Do you just stick it to a plate with the magnets on the backside like Lindsay shows and then turn it upside down to shine to the right? Looking at laser levels on Amazon, Home Depot, etc., it looks like most all of them are intended to be used with beam shining to the left. None of the instructions I looked at show shining the beam to the right.
lindsayw148
New member
• the beam shining to the left or right: I use lasers with magnets on the bottom so they get used on the standoffs (which have a flat steel plate like a pie-dish, parallel to the brake discs), and are lying on their sides, so laser up-down inaccuracy becomes side-to-side inaccuracy. Calibrating the lasers ignores side-to-side because that won’t matter for alignment purposes. But they are carefully calibrated for up-down, relative to the magnetic base (I use the entire length of my house, and both beams hitting the far wall exactly alongside each other). Just attach the lasers to the standoff pointing the opposite way.
• With incoming errors in alignment, pointing the lasers to the rear to get a width measurement means the distance from the center of the front wheel to the rear rim is the span where existing alignment errors will be unintentionally incorporated in the measurement – that’s HALF a wheel diameter. Average toe-in or toe-out on most Spyders is in the order of 0.7mm toe-in to about 0.5mm toe-out at rest. The error over that very short distance is so small that it is insignificant – using a tape, you can’t measure that accurately, and a laser dot is about 1mm diameter. Just avoid parallax error and the width measurement will be so close to accurate that it doesn’t make any difference.
• The major difference I recommend is to use MORE toe-in than BRP specifies. Instead of 0.5mm across-the-wheel (which translates to 2.5mm at the targets, which magnify the angle by 5). That tiny amount of toe-in is not enough to compensate for natural spread IN MOTION, so that many bikes creep into a small amount of toe-out, and that deadly wandering, skittery steering problem. The RT is a fairly heavy bike so I aim for about 10mm toe-in AT THE TARGETS for an average load, or 8mm at the targets for any of the lighter models. That’s between 1.5mm to 2.0mm across-the-wheel.
• Obviously yes, you must perform alignments on a FLAT floor. The vertical edge of the square on the floor must be plumb, but you won’t be aligning your bike in a paddock. Not a problem.
• Spyders and Rykers, like any other vehicle, are assembled on a production line from components that have been built on jigs, so are individually accurate. But the way they get bolted or welded together introduces small errors, so the sort of alignment issues you will face are handlebar centering errors and fairly small wheel alignment errors. It ain’t rocket-science, and the results tell their own story – a well-aligned Spyder is a joy to ride, a poorly-aligned one is a pig.
• With incoming errors in alignment, pointing the lasers to the rear to get a width measurement means the distance from the center of the front wheel to the rear rim is the span where existing alignment errors will be unintentionally incorporated in the measurement – that’s HALF a wheel diameter. Average toe-in or toe-out on most Spyders is in the order of 0.7mm toe-in to about 0.5mm toe-out at rest. The error over that very short distance is so small that it is insignificant – using a tape, you can’t measure that accurately, and a laser dot is about 1mm diameter. Just avoid parallax error and the width measurement will be so close to accurate that it doesn’t make any difference.
• The major difference I recommend is to use MORE toe-in than BRP specifies. Instead of 0.5mm across-the-wheel (which translates to 2.5mm at the targets, which magnify the angle by 5). That tiny amount of toe-in is not enough to compensate for natural spread IN MOTION, so that many bikes creep into a small amount of toe-out, and that deadly wandering, skittery steering problem. The RT is a fairly heavy bike so I aim for about 10mm toe-in AT THE TARGETS for an average load, or 8mm at the targets for any of the lighter models. That’s between 1.5mm to 2.0mm across-the-wheel.
• Obviously yes, you must perform alignments on a FLAT floor. The vertical edge of the square on the floor must be plumb, but you won’t be aligning your bike in a paddock. Not a problem.
• Spyders and Rykers, like any other vehicle, are assembled on a production line from components that have been built on jigs, so are individually accurate. But the way they get bolted or welded together introduces small errors, so the sort of alignment issues you will face are handlebar centering errors and fairly small wheel alignment errors. It ain’t rocket-science, and the results tell their own story – a well-aligned Spyder is a joy to ride, a poorly-aligned one is a pig.
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
I take it then the lasers are not free floating inside the level, i.e., they are adjustable up/down with screws with respect to the magnetic base but not free to move as they would be in a self leveling laser. Those you would not want to use on their side, would you?
PMK
Active member
Mine are essentially a bubble level with a rigid mounted laser in the end, pointed longitudinally, same as the levels body. Typically, most of these quality laser levels have calibration adjustments. Once aligned, the screws are tightened and the laser is rigidly secured.
lindsayw148
New member
Yes, although in my case the lasers did not have that up-down adjustment. Ccol on this forum does alignments in the area fairly near the village where I live, and he uses Bosch lasers, which do have that adjustment. I had to adjust mine the long way, using epoxy resin on the base of one laser then sanding it back until it was exactly the same as the other – it was only a gnat's whisker out but not perfect. I was lucky that one of the two was dead accurate in the up-down plane... otherwise I would simply have bought some Bosch lasers.
PMK
Active member
At a guess, your friend uses these?
https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/line-lasers-gll-1-p-50826-p/
seaweed
Member
There are two items of interest in this discussion that I have not seen addressed sufficiently.
1) Toe in compare to weight of rider(s) and possibility of towing a camper. Should there be a difference in toe-in for a single rider weight (say 150 lb. vs a heavy rider around the weight of 250 lb.)? Also if normally a single rider compared to normally 2 up. If normally pulling a trailer should this matter for amount of toe-in?
2) I have seen the comments of "locking the handlebars in place ", "locking down the handlebars", "the bars are straight", "locking down the bars". As far as I know there is no locking mechanism on the Spyders to lock the handlebars in a center position. The only method that I have seen used is to stand in the back of the bike and look at the handlebars to see if they look like they are equally left and right. This does not seem to be a accurate method. Try this experiment: Ride on a level surface (about the length of a football field and aim at an object at the far end of the area. Now get off the bike without disturbing the placement of the handlebars. Stand at the rear of the bike and look at the handlebars. Do the look like they are perpendicular to the travel of the path that you took??
Perhaps after taking that ride, a better method is to measure the ends of the handle bars to a fixed point on the bike. Take a length of cord, tie a loop in one end and place in over a location on the handlebar, and mark or hold the point where the other end of the cord touches a point on the bike (like a bolt at the rear of the bike). Now take the cord to the other side of the bike and do the same thing. I would venture that there would be a noticeable difference in the length. I have tried this and have seen about 3/4 of an inch difference!!!
1) Toe in compare to weight of rider(s) and possibility of towing a camper. Should there be a difference in toe-in for a single rider weight (say 150 lb. vs a heavy rider around the weight of 250 lb.)? Also if normally a single rider compared to normally 2 up. If normally pulling a trailer should this matter for amount of toe-in?
2) I have seen the comments of "locking the handlebars in place ", "locking down the handlebars", "the bars are straight", "locking down the bars". As far as I know there is no locking mechanism on the Spyders to lock the handlebars in a center position. The only method that I have seen used is to stand in the back of the bike and look at the handlebars to see if they look like they are equally left and right. This does not seem to be a accurate method. Try this experiment: Ride on a level surface (about the length of a football field and aim at an object at the far end of the area. Now get off the bike without disturbing the placement of the handlebars. Stand at the rear of the bike and look at the handlebars. Do the look like they are perpendicular to the travel of the path that you took??
Perhaps after taking that ride, a better method is to measure the ends of the handle bars to a fixed point on the bike. Take a length of cord, tie a loop in one end and place in over a location on the handlebar, and mark or hold the point where the other end of the cord touches a point on the bike (like a bolt at the rear of the bike). Now take the cord to the other side of the bike and do the same thing. I would venture that there would be a noticeable difference in the length. I have tried this and have seen about 3/4 of an inch difference!!!
BLUEKNIGHT911
Sadly Passed Oct 2024 - RIP
IMHO, the engineers at BRP have taken all this into consideration in the suspension design..... Yes it could have been designed to consider ALL the possibilities. … but 99% of the buyers couldn't afford to buy it then, so yes there have been compromises …. bottom line - it works. ….. Mike
hyea:
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
Here are three bits of the factory prescribed procedure from the 2013 RT service manual. The first two deal with locking the handlebar.
These instructions aren't in the 2014 service manual but I think that's because the 2014 manual was more or less an addendum to the 2013 manual. Another instruction I have here is the factory method calls for the shocks to be replaced with alignment links during the alignment process. That indicates that BRP does not regard variations in toe-in caused by rider weight, etc., to be significant enough to be accounted for.
lindsayw148
New member
They look like that, yes. Col does alignments in the north-side Brisbane area, and I sometimes ride down to give him a hand if possible – I live about an hour away.
Unlike the Ryker, yes. Custom bars make strapping them dead straight during alignment hard, as do items like backrests, but read the step-by-step instruction PDF for my alignment kit (link in an earlier post) and a fairly accurate method is described there.
Wildrice
New member
What is the spec for front end alignment?? keep handle bars straight. Toe IN minus /#/inch??
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