Harley Clamping Down on Owners

[UtahPete]

If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! �� When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.

In my opinion, this sort of dangerous nonsense doesn't belong here. Even if it is said in jest. nojoke

 

[ARtraveler]

How many of you think that one person is doing his best to mess up this discussion?

Is it time to close this down, or to put someone on vacation for a week or so????

You can PM me.

 

[Gwolf]

If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.

Deer all over the place here where I live. I rode a Harley for 25 years before I bought the Spyder. Yeah, maybe the deer can hear the Harley better, but all it seems to do is make them run back and forth across the road in front of you, because it scares them and they can't make up their minds which way they want to go. If there is half a dozen deer in a herd crossing the road, you need to almost stop, because the ones that didn't get across already are going to be running in front of you and trying to stay with the rest of the herd. When I was working shift work I hit 4 deer at different times with my old truck that had dual glass packs on it.

These are pictures from the lane 150 feet in front of my house.

 

[LeftCoast]

The only thing for sure is that Deer are idiots when it comes to anything other than a predator. They can't judge vehicle speed and movement worth a damn and will try to stay with the herd even if it means jumping in front of the car. As witnessed by me driving home from college with a doe spread across the grill of my car outside Steamboat Springs Colo.

They will most likely hear the horn but I'm not sure that makes them do anything rational as far as what a human would do in response to it.

 

[johnsimion]

How many of you think that one person is doing his best to mess up this discussion?

Is it time to close this down, or to put someone on vacation for a week or so????

You can PM me.

Well, it IS pretty far off topic (the original topic was pollution, now it's all about Harley noise) but it DID veer away from political. I agree about the one-line retorts, but the subject (whether it be pollution or Harley noise) is still interesting enough that I'd hate to see the whole thread shut down. I say, "Continue the conversation but keep it civil."

 

[007james]

Well, it IS pretty far off topic (the original topic was pollution, now it's all about Harley noise) but it DID veer away from political. I agree about the one-line retorts, but the subject (whether it be pollution or Harley noise) is still interesting enough that I'd hate to see the whole thread shut down. I say, "Continue the conversation but keep it civil."

The solution to pollution is dilution. Harley Riders biggest Joys are loud Noise! They know how to steer to miss the Deer.

 

[ARtraveler]

We are trying our best NOT to close this down. See post #46. A couple have went out of their way to try to stir things up. So far we are still watching. And....you picked up on my "subtle" caution. :roflblack:

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Here's a good discussion about avoiding deer. Unfortunately, in the first video the loud exhaust of the Honda V-twin didn't keep him from hitting one.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tre...ps-to-avoid-hitting-a-deer-on-your-motorcycle

 

[007james]

Here's a good discussion about avoiding deer. Unfortunately, in the first video the loud exhaust of the Honda V-twin didn't keep him from hitting one.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tre...ps-to-avoid-hitting-a-deer-on-your-motorcycle

Real scary videos! No doubt, there is is no time to react when they jump out in front of you from seemingly no where. That Honda was real quiet, as compared to my Harley. But Deer seem to be suicidal. I always expect more to follow after the first one crosses. Turkeys are worse than Deer when they jump out in front of you. I almost dumped my Harley a couple of times when I only jammed the rear brakes and slid side ways before recovering. The Speed Limit on the Blue Ridge Parkway is 45 MPH Max., so does make it easier to look for Deer or other creatures. Squirrels are the worst, but they are too small to dump you. But truthfully , when riding either my Harley or Spyder on the Country roads in Virginia , Deer are my greatest concern to watch out for. But I feel much more alert with loud pipes! They keep me awake , and I am not sitting in front or in back of the Pipes, but safe on top! So loud pipes keep me alert even if Deer don’t hear hear them.

 

[Wahrsuul]

Aaaaand some people don't take subtle hints very well. I think I'm done here. I have more to say on the subject, but... seems pointless.

 

[LeftCoast]

So FWIW in my opinion, and this is a general observation and directed at no one, is its rare when someone’s mind actually gets changed about a topic on a message board unless there is data and it proves something unequivocally one way or the other, and even then people will dig in. Mods are fine with a difference of opinion if it’s expressed respectfully.

We’re even more fine when folks agree to disagree and leave it at that. :thumbup:

 

[007james]

So FWIW in my opinion, and this is a general observation and directed at no one, is its rare when someone’s mind actually gets changed about a topic on a message board unless there is data and it proves something unequivocally one way or the other, and even then people will dig in. Mods are fine with a difference of opinion if it’s expressed respectfully.

We’re even more fine when folks agree to disagree and leave it at that. :thumbup:

Maybe ending the Loud Pipe discussion on Neutral ground might satisfy all sides and end the argument. Deer are not the only lives saved by loud pipes.
https://youtu.be/jM77vjnEaXw

 

[JAS POWER]

Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. :thumbup: Tom :spyder:

I went to a Factory Honda engines service school I would say about 10 years ago for my dealership. They were talking about all the EPA stuff that is on their engines from restrictor caps on carburetors to just the EPA label that is on the engine. Honda mentioned it is the dealers responsibility to make sure it stays all in tact, and not tampered with. As a dealer I could get heavily fined from the EPA. Even if the EPA sticker is missing from an engine I am supposed to replace it. If I had visit from the EPA and I had units in missing the tag that had been already worked on I could be be fined.

I must have a 1/2 dozen or more tamper proof carburetor adjustment tools in my box now. These tools are sold all over Ebay / Amazon (Online in general). As a dealer I am not allowed to sell these tools to anyone. I could be subject to I believe up to a $5000.00 dollar fine. I can not tell you how many letters I have received from different OEM companies that I am an authorized dealer for regarding the sale of these tools, and the fines that could result from me selling them to the public. I can not tell you how many irritated customers walk in my dealership mad that I won't sell them a tool to adjust their carburetor. To me its not worth the risk of the fine.

I could easily see Harley starting to clamp down in California where they are the strictest with the air quality (CARB). I am sure CARB people are working with a lot of OEM motorcycle, power equipment manufactures to come up with a way to keep the emission systems in check, and not tampered with.

I have been in business a long time, I have seen many changes in emission advancements being implicated. In my opinion the end result from the EPA is that they don't want anyone not trained working on engines anymore, and that is the ultimate goal until they rid us of the evil combustion engine.

An engine according to the EPA puts out an amount of emissions that the EPA tested and approved prior to that engine being able to be sold to the public. When people tamper with these engines the amount of pollution coming from them can change, and is no longer what the EPA approved prior to that engine being able to be sold to the public.

Consumers don't always understand what dealers are responsible for. I hear a lot of customers not happy that they can't do a simple adjustment on their carburetor anymore, as they could always do it in the past. I don't agree completely with all this EPA stuff, but it is what it is I have to do what the EPA wants as a dealership.

I think the biggest take away from limiting people from fixing, modifying, or whatever you want to call it, is the fact it limits creativity. I see tuning an engine, or building a custom vehicle in anyway as a form of art. I myself can not paint or draw worth a darn, but I can surly tune an engine, and that is music to my ears :yes:

 

[2dogs]

Back in the 90's I built a 383 stroker out of a 350 for my 78 vet. 10 to 1 compression with a light cam so it would satisfy smog requirements at the time. It has some where between 383 and 400 HP. Today after it comes home from the smog shop (it still passes smog with some adjustments) I'm probably chugging along closer to 383 hp at 16 mpg. Each time it's smogged I have to spend a hour or so at home readjusting the timing and carb to reclaim my performance and fuel millage. Properly tuned I get 19/20 mpg. On the other hand when I take my newer diesel truck in for smog I have to un-chip it a week or so before I take it in. The smog tech is an upfront and honest guy and I've been going to the same smog shop for a long time. These days there's little to be done other than a visual and a tailpipe test. The days of spending time with a spring kit, a timing light, vacuum gage and tach balancing out an engine are over. Dam, my wife's new Cherokee with the small hemi will leave my vet in the dust any day. She only gets 20 mpg also. Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.

Simple logic would say you're right, but like everything in life, nothing is simple. I'm no smog or chemical expert, but if CO2 and H2O were the only products of combustion we probably wouldn't have a pollution problem at all, except maybe with regard to amount of CO2 being dumped. But because of all the chemicals in the air and fuel the combustion process can get pretty complicated and changes in factors such as compression ratio and fuel to air mixture can change the output significantly. So it's all a balancing act. Remember back in the late 60's and early 70's? MPG was as low as 7 to 8 mpg for ordinary big boat cars. With the technology and understanding at that time excess fuel consumption actually reduced some recognized pollutant output levels. Higher mpg levels may result in higher toxic chemical levels while reducing CO2 and H2O.

I suspect no one yet today knows exactly what all chemicals released into the atmosphere have what kind of adverse impact on plants, animals, and humans. As that understanding evolves so does the target for emissions.

 

[finsfanscott]

Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.

There are 3 main pollutants that the EPA measures. CO, CO2 and NOx. For gasoline engines, the most difficult one to reduce is the NOx. Air is mainly Nitrogen and Oxygen. When you burn (oxidize) fuel in a closed system, you get very high temperatures and pressures. That's what moves the cylinders. At these high temps/pressures part of the Nitrogen (normally inert or unreactive) combines with the Oxygen to produce NOx (smog). In the past, the limits were high enough for NOx that we could comply with a "lean burn" engines, a good example (if anyone remembers) is the Honda CVCC engine.

Peak engine performance (power and fuel consumption) are optimized with about 2% excess O2 in the exhaust. This means you put (a little) excess air in the cylinder to ensure all the fuel is burned. In 2dogs' example of readjusting timing and carb probably gets him to that 2% O2 level. But as we know, today's emissions controlled engines all have catalysts. Because O2 is way more reactive than the NOx that we are trying to control, all the O2 has to be out of the exhaust before it gets to the catalyst. So today's engines are set to run slightly rich, using a little more fuel than needed to ensure all the O2 is consumed. This produces a "dirtier" exhaust with more NOx that the catalyst can now clean up. This is why today's engines have O2 sensors so they can automatically vary the air fuel ratio (by varying the the amount, timing, and sometimes even the pressure of fuel injection) and the ignition timing to ensure there is almost no O2 in the exhaust. So when you remove your catalyst and don't adjust timing or air fuel ratio, you really won't get much improvement. While I don't know if this is true, but some of the companies offering to re-map your computer could be altered to allow the engine to run slightly leaner and get more power, but that would be illegal in an on road vehicle.

Hope this helps understand some of the dynamics involved and how sometimes using more fuel can result in cleaner exhaust.

 

[LeftCoast]

thanks, now all my high school and college chem class nightmares are reawakening. And no, I did not do well in my chem classes. :shocked:

Nice explanation though! :bowdown:

 

[2dogs]

My chem class in high school was to say the least, a total waste of the teacher's time. I dropped chem class and took typing in the hopes of getting a date with one or two of the girls in that class. Little did I know typing would become a major asset in my future. Possibly the most useful class in HS. My son gave me his left over chem books from his college years which came in useful when I had to take some hazmat classes. I have see explosive, or hazardous material placards and I'd look up the number in my handy dandy reference book to find out what it was. That was the sum total of my interest in chemistry. I think I'm getting what finsfanscott is talking about. I've noticed the tail pipes on my wife's jeep are black looking and the tail pipes on my vet are a light gray color. My tail pipes are much cleaner looking than hers. Thanks to IdahoMtnSpyder and finsfanscott for the insight into info on engine combustion chemistry. Thanks guys.

 

[Gwolf]

Simple logic would say you're right, but like everything in life, nothing is simple. I'm no smog or chemical expert, but if CO2 and H2O were the only products of combustion we probably wouldn't have a pollution problem at all, except maybe with regard to amount of CO2 being dumped. But because of all the chemicals in the air and fuel the combustion process can get pretty complicated and changes in factors such as compression ratio and fuel to air mixture can change the output significantly. So it's all a balancing act. Remember back in the late 60's and early 70's? MPG was as low as 7 to 8 mpg for ordinary big boat cars. With the technology and understanding at that time excess fuel consumption actually reduced some recognized pollutant output levels. Higher mpg levels may result in higher toxic chemical levels while reducing CO2 and H2O.

I suspect no one yet today knows exactly what all chemicals released into the atmosphere have what kind of adverse impact on plants, animals, and humans. As that understanding evolves so does the target for emissions.

So maybe Fred Flintstone's car did kill off all the dinosaurs?

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So maybe Fred Flintstone's car did kill off all the dinosaurs?

Probably all the dust from his feet accelerating and braking!! :roflblack: