Harley Clamping Down on Owners

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all. :thumbup:

Can you tell me if you can get fined for farting or burping in public?

 

[WisconsinDavid]

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

 

[UtahPete]

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

Well said, David. And, I share your concerns and viewpoint actually.

 

[007james]

I love Loud Pipes, and I ride a Harley Heritage with after market loud Pipes, that make old Ladies faint, old men riding their Ride on Lawn Mowers with 5 H.P. Briggs & Stratton engines dream, and imagine them selves on my Harley, and me mowing their lawns! They all wave to me before the old Ladies faint! Young Gals gawk and smile, and give me the Thumbs up when I go by, and young Guys wave and High Five each other! But that’s only when I ride through the Hoods to terrorize the Natives! The REAL reason I love loud Pipes, is because 95% of the time I ride my Harley, on the Blue Ridge Parkway, in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. There are hundreds of Deer and wild Turkeys all over the area, and in the Fall, during rutting season, the Deer are crossing the Parkways, and way too many are laying dead beside the road after being hit. Loud Pipes warns both Deer and Turkeys, and when on my Harley, I at least have a better chance of not hitting them. I also ride my Spyder RT Limited, which is quiet , and Deer or Turkeys never hear me coming until I get right up to them, then its too late if I don’t react in time. I am now 77, so my reaction time is in slow motion!! I did hit a Deer in Nov. 2016 with my Spyder, and had $1300 damage on my Spyder, and broke both of the Deer’s back legs running over them, after he jumped out in front of me. I never even seen him until after I hit him, and I took the ditch! Had I had my Harley with loud pipes, that would never have happened. I lived in Laguna Beach, California, in the same house for 31 years, from 1979 thru 2010, and
never was allowed loud pipes any where in California, and I never needed them, and was OK with stock pipes on my Many motorcycles I owned during that time, because I wasn’t dodging Deer, but.........it would have still been fun to terrorize the Natives once in awhile, if I would have had a Harley there, but I always had quiet Metrics. So, cutting to the chase, one size never fits all. It depends on where we live, our age, gender, politics, etc. My best Two days in California were, the first day I drove in to Laguna Beach to my new house, and the last day I was there, when I looked at California in my rear view mirror when I crossed in to the Arizona border Jan. 1, 2011! I have never been back since. Looking at California now, I am glad I was able to escape! It was a 31 year challenge surviving there. Virginia and California are like different planets. I always kept a Jeep, A Pick Up, and several cars, plus 2-3 motorcycles, so wasted a lot of money on yearly Smog checks, etc.
007James

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

 

[johnsimion]

I'm glad that I don't live in a pure democracy, but a Democratic/Republic form of government, with a Constitution and Bill of Rights. Pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who will be eaten for dinner. That's what I was saying before. Our society is shifting, some for the good and some for the bad. But the state is starting to decide what is best for you and legislating what is best for you. Try buying a large soda in New York City today. That has been banned, because too much soft drink has now decided to be bad for you. The government has stepped in to protect you from it and you from yourself. The time may come when, because those in the motorsports are relatively few in number comparitively, it is decided that cycles and such are too dangerous for the roadways - or need to have less power/speed or fill in the blank, or everything must have four wheels, etc. I live in a town where BLUE ZONES are working to make everything healthier, a noble goal... but a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding, and are engineering groups/people/business to push toward their goals. All of this kind of thing is fine, when you agree with the goal ... but what about when you don't and find you have become the lamb looking at the wolves? With all the changes, we need to be careful and need to keep the founding documents of the country in view, to keep this American experiment from floundering. To be sure, it is a tightrope to walk. I'm sure on this board we have different experiences, strengths and political views... so I don't belittle but listen and try to learn. I encourage others to do the same. Do I like loud pipes. No! Do I think everyone should wear a helmet? Yes, in my way of thinking only a fool doesn't. But that is me. Do I think people have a right to be foolish? Yes. My ideas are ridiculous, Pete? Perhaps, in your view. But I have a right to my thoughts ... just as you do to yours. And, I won't call your views ridiculous. Just a few things to at least ponder as we look toward the future... and days beyond us that our kids/grandkids will know. (I'm 60) What we do now (and allow to be changed now), does impact the generations beyond us (and the sport beyond us). Peace. Have a great week everyone.

Mostly I would agree. You refer to "a small unelected group of people now defines healthier, have been given power and funding." Who gave them power and funding? Answer, your elected representatives. IMO the main problem here is that our elected representatives aren't doing their job. They seem to be more concerned with getting re-elected than with representing. I can't think of any other reason, e.g., why they don't pass legislation to ban robocalls. I mean, surely banning robocalls is something everyone could agree on? But it's also complicated. Everyone wants freedom. The problem is that one person's freedom may infringe on someone else's freedom. My suburban neighbor is not free to put a shoot his guns in his backyard because that would infringe on my own quiet use of my property. It gets more complicated. Your freedom should not cost me money. Seemingly helmet laws are a clear infringement of freedom. But it's not that simple. Riders who don't wear helmets statistically suffer worse injuries in accidents. This costs more money for medical bills. Medical bills cost insurance companies money. If insurance companies pay out more money, they raise the rates for all of us. So in some sense helmet laws prevent riders from infringing on OUR right not to pay more for medical insurance. For pollution, there is at least some cost to society in terms of whether we want to breathe smog and suffer personal health issues. And there is the issue of whether and how much Source X contributes to the pollution. These questions are supposed to be answered by the Legislature, but they turn them over to the "unelected people" and whose fault is that? Our own - we elected these people.

 

[ARtraveler]

A moderators point of view:

A little more political than I like...but so far...everybody is keeping it calm. :bowdown:

If this stays on an even keel, maybe a model for future discussions. :dontknow:

If the black triangles start to fly or the name calling begins...then its done.

 

[WisconsinDavid]

You are so right. Those are the concerns that I see, too. Unelected people, but embraced to an extent by our local officials and provided some taxpayer funding. Also some of the funding is brought in from outside of the area, with the goal of creating a powerful group that seeks to create social and behavioral change. The change is made by slowly creating groups of people that either comply or ostracise those not in compliance. It is a strange mix indeed, a noble goal in health improvement but at the same time very concerning in practice. That was also my point with the entire motorcycle industry. If non-use of helmets costs people money and needs to be required ... it is not a distant leap that motorcycles are dangerous and cost more health dollars ... so the attitude to curb or eliminate them may be embraced as time goes forward. It is important for those on 2 or 3 wheels to support each other. Agreed though, it is a very complex balancing act. It is above my pay-grade. Done being political... back to spring out there!

 

[WisconsinDavid]

Thanks, Moderator

 

[Wildrice]

You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

That is the exact reason I reinstalled my CAT after removing the CAT bypass pipe. We are allowed to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples lives. If loud pipes save lives it's at the expense of someone else's comfort zone. I've purchased used Harleys with a gutted out Screamin Eagles mufflers..I replaced the gutted version with the standard Screamin Eagle muffler & the low end torque re-appeared plus the neighbor was happy again... Extremely loud pipes scare some people into an instant lane change without consideration of what vehicle may be in their blind spot.

 

[KX5062]

See red responses below. Red, you know, as in "Commiefornia." LOL

Since you're an attorney, I'll write slowly. JOKE!!!! Just kidding. Just like the Commiefornia reference is a joke. Since I've been a life-long resident I'm entitled to criticize my state or to poke fun at it. The nick-name of Commiefornia is older than I am and obviously you're not getting it. Sorry. You are also clearly uninformed about the goings on in the Land of Fruits and Nuts (another sarcastic reference). You are also not understanding my message (you say I'm wrong and I say you're wrong) and since it's getting political, I'm out. Peace.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I love Loud Pipes, and I ride a Harley Heritage with after market loud Pipes, ...

Loud Pipes warns both Deer and Turkeys, and when on my Harley, I at least have a better chance of not hitting them. I also ride my Spyder RT Limited, which is quiet , and Deer or Turkeys never hear me coming until I get right up to them, then its too late if I don’t react in time. I am now 77, so my reaction time is in slow motion!! I did hit a Deer in Nov. 2016 with my Spyder, and had $1300 damage on my Spyder, and broke both of the Deer’s back legs running over them, after he jumped out in front of me. I never even seen him until after I hit him, and I took the ditch! Had I had my Harley with loud pipes, that would never have happened.

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

 

[UtahPete]

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

This logic will be no doubt lost on the obnoxious organ donor crowd who will use any excuse to justify their selfish, antisocial behavior.

 

[UtahPete]

Can you tell me if you can get fined for farting or burping in public?

No, I can't. But you might.

 

[Wahrsuul]

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

I've made this argument as few times, but it's wasted on those who want some justification for what they wanted to do anyway.

 

[BoilerAnimal]

Your freedom should not cost me money. Seemingly helmet laws are a clear infringement of freedom. But it's not that simple. Riders who don't wear helmets statistically suffer worse injuries in accidents. This costs more money for medical bills. Medical bills cost insurance companies money. If insurance companies pay out more money, they raise the rates for all of us. So in some sense helmet laws prevent riders from infringing on OUR right not to pay more for medical insurance.

Another way not wearing a helmet can affect the population at large is through increased taxes due to a severely injured rider becoming dependent on Medicaid for long term care. So we get hit twice for someone's refusal to be "burdened" with refusing to wear a helmet.

 

[007james]

What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��

 

[UtahPete]

My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��

B.S. :yikes:

 

[KX5062]

And, my Harley is bone stock. (2018 Heritage Classic) :2thumbs:

 

[wyliec]

My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��

"Sound waves in air vibrate parallel to the direction that the sound wave moves." All that means is, if your exhaust is pointed back (like it typically is), most of the sound you hear (while the bike is in motion) will be behind you. That is not to say someone in front won't hear it; it's just not as loud.

I did check my ears in the mirror, and I think they are on correctly.

 

[007james]

"Sound waves in air vibrate parallel to the direction that the sound wave moves." All that means is, if your exhaust is pointed back (like it typically is), most of the sound you hear (while the bike is in motion) will be behind you. That is not to say someone in front won't hear it; it's just not as loud.

I did check my ears in the mirror, and I think they are on correctly.

If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.