Check oil level hot or cold?

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

There has been a fair amount of discussion here whether or not checking the oil level in the 1330 really must be done with the engine warmed up, or if it's OK to check it cold and make an appropriate adjustment. The general consensus has been if you are checking the oil cold then the equivalent hot full level would be about halfway between the high and low marks for a cold engine.

My experience today seriously questions that assumption. My 2014 RTS has been sitting in the garage without the engine being started since October. I decided today to take it out and get the engine warmed and the oil mixed real good so that I can take a sample out of it for analysis. I want to see what the oil condition is like with only 4200 miles on it and then being parked for the winter. I'm inclined to not change the oil until another 5000+ plus miles.

Anyway, I decided to check the oil level before I started the engine. I expected it to be somewhere around the mid point between the two nubbins. Well, guess what! The dipstick was totally, I mean totally, dry. Not a drop of oil on it. That really mystified me as I was sure it was full last fall. I took the bike out for about a half-hour ride and checked the oil level as soon as I got back. It was all the way to the full mark! Obviously the oil settled down into the bottom of the engine and sump while the bike was sitting but was now back up into the pool where the dipstick is. So it begs the question. How fast does the oil level drop after you turn the engine off? How much does it drop if the bike is not run for two weeks? Many members here report letting their bike sit idle for weeks. If you're conscientious and check the oil before going on a ride, and the bike has been turned off for 2 to 4 weeks, how much oil should you add, if any, if the dipstick shows the oil at the low level? I think maybe this is why a few members have reported seeing excessive oil levels after adding oil and then riding.

It looks like once again the BRP engineers have reason for their instruction - check the oil after running the engine to get it warmed up to normal temperature, and right after running it at least 30 seconds.

 

[JP58]

The oil level gos down when cold. Never add oil to it then. Warm up fully and check within 2 minutes.

 

[JayBros]

When the three scavenge pumps have done their work and pumped oil back into the integral tank once the engine is turned off, within just a couple of minutes the oil begins to seep down into the bottom of the engine thereby rendering readings on the dipstick inaccurate.

 

[PMK]

When the three scavenge pumps have done their work and pumped oil back into the integral tank once the engine is turned off, within just a couple of minutes the oil begins to seep down into the bottom of the engine thereby rendering readings on the dipstick inaccurate.

Yes, the dry sump type setup requires the scavenge pump system to place oil back into the reservoir where it feeds the main oil pumps. Because the engine sat so long in the guys original post, this is why he had no indication on the dipstick when he checked the oil.

I have found it is less about having hot oil but more about checking the oil in a very short time after shutdown that matters. Actually, all that fluff about doing an oil change and underfilling the system, run it get it hot blah, blah, blah, I do not bother with. Drain oil hot after a reasonable ride. Remove body panels while oil drains. Remove and replace filter. Reinstall drain pugs, then add the oil quantity specified in the manual. Done. Each time I have done this, the oil level is correct and full when hot. !330 engine with no apparent oil consumption and using Mobil 1 Sportbike 10W40 motorcycle oil.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The oil - Hot or Cold thing is not like the belt Tension - Off the ground or On the ground...… I wouldn't advise using OIL that is has been sitting after a season of riding..... ( or the filter )…...Oil breaks down over time, do to contaminates ….. It isn't just the miles used …...jmho ….. Mike hyea:

 

[BajaRon]

The oil - Hot or Cold thing is not like the belt Tension - Off the ground or On the ground...… I wouldn't advise using OIL that is has been sitting after a season of riding..... ( or the filter )…...Oil breaks down over time, do to contaminates ….. It isn't just the miles used …...jmho ….. Mike hyea:

I felt the same way about 'Sitting Oil'. I just had my GS oil analyzed after sitting for 2 years. (I know, I should be flogged for letting it sit so long). But I digress.

It is Amsoil, of course, so not necessarily a universal application. The oil had about 3,500 miles on it when I parked the GS a little over 2 years ago. Once I got it running again I ran it about 30 miles to get it good and hot to mix the oil and burn off any moisture that had accumulated. The Analysis came back very good. I was pretty surprised. I have a fuel management system which has been set a bit rich. I had a 2.5% fuel dilution in my previous sample. As you can see it's better here and I've adjusted it again since I received this report.

I emailed Blackstone about this and this is what they said.

'There is some fuel in this sample, but not enough to worry about. The low flashpoint shows a harmless 1.0% fuel,
that's likely just from something operational. The viscosity may have been thinned slightly by fuel, but that
didn't bother anything we can see. Engine wear is below average after a similar oil change (averages are
based on ~3,300 miles). Good overall!'

 

[Lew L]

I don't let the oil in the :spyder2: or my V-Max ( which both are stored for 4-5 months) languish with contaminated oil in and around the plain bearing material. One of the oil additives is a chemical buffer ( to nutrilize combustion acids), which as Mike said , wears out ( along with much of the other additives). Thus---- fresh oil for the long Winters nap.

Lew L

 

[Geep]

Curious as to how many engine failures there have been attributed to “old” oil? What mileage did this occur at? Given that most engines have a “design life” built into them, I wonder if we are worrying too much about the condition of the oil? I know that oil is a science..(tribology) but much like politics and religion we all have our own beliefs.....mine is make sure there is sufficient, correct oil, and changed at factory or sooner recommendations and go ride

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I asked my Honda dealer one time about leaving oil for a second or third season in my ATV. He said there is no need to change the oil just because of time if there weren't very many miles or hours on it.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I asked my Honda dealer one time about leaving oil for a second or third season in my ATV. He said there is no need to change the oil just because of time if there weren't very many miles or hours on it.

If that dealer is correct …. I would love to ask them ….." then why does it turn black " ….. ?????? …… Mike hyea:

 

[PMK]

I asked my Honda dealer one time about leaving oil for a second or third season in my ATV. He said there is no need to change the oil just because of time if there weren't very many miles or hours on it.

This was last changed in 1974. Had the oil been drained and refilled, then drained again, very unlikely damage would have happened. You should drain and change oil at least every 12 months if the bike is ridden, regardless of how many miles or hours.

 

[Highwayman2013]

I don't let the oil in the :spyder2: or my V-Max ( which both are stored for 4-5 months) languish with contaminated oil in and around the plain bearing material. One of the oil additives is a chemical buffer ( to nutrilize combustion acids), which as Mike said , wears out ( along with much of the other additives). Thus---- fresh oil for the long Winters nap.

Lew L

The chemical buffer is measured as Total Base Number or TBN. This is what keeps old oil from "turning to acid" Ron just said his sat for 2 years without problems. Get an oil analysis sometime when you change your oil, it is very interesting knowing and not guessing.

 

[Lew L]

The chemical buffer is measured as Total Base Number or TBN. This is what keeps old oil from "turning to acid" Ron just said his sat for 2 years without problems. Get an oil analysis sometime when you change your oil, it is very interesting knowing and not guessing.

Well, I ( and many, many others ) believe that replacing used oil with fresh oil before long Winters storage is much better than leaving contaminated oil sit for months in the crankcase. MY Materials science teacher in collage was a retired Shell oil engineer and I did my final term paper on oil breakdown. Yes I know oil has changed a great deal over the past few decades. The two buffering agents do thier job and become chemical neutral when they do. Combustion by-products when mixed with H2O form acids. ( The "water" that comes out the cars tail pipe is acidic, some contaminates the oil) The plain bearing material and other metals can react with the weak acid.
All that said--- we all change our oil on a regular basis so this process dosen't cause failures. I ( and many, many others, check out " Bob's the oil guy.com" ) put in fresh, fully buffered oil before winter storage.

Respectfully,
Lew L

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I sent the oil sample yesterday. Will report the results when I get them. Nothing like objective data to prove/disprove long held opinions!!

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I sent the oil sample yesterday. Will report the results when I get them. Nothing like objective data to prove/disprove long held opinions!!

For the results go here: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?120162-Oil-Analysis-results-green-OK-check-mark!

 

[Joe T.]

When the three scavenge pumps have done their work and pumped oil back into the integral tank once the engine is turned off, within just a couple of minutes the oil begins to seep down into the bottom of the engine thereby rendering readings on the dipstick inaccurate.

If that is true, and I don't doubt what you say, then BRP did an extremely poor job designing the dipstick location. If the oil level can change, after warming up the motor, just by the oil seeping down into the main sump, then that is poor design.

Joe T.

 

[JayBros]

Since the oil sump on the 1330 engine is integral to the engine and not separate, I assume the engineers put the dipstick exactly where they wanted it for (a) easy access for the operator to check the oil level and (b) because it's the shortest distance to the dry sump. IMO, when you consider how easy it is to get to the dipstick I think they did a pretty good job, no Tupperware to remove, nice, short dipstick.

 

[Lew L]

I sent the oil sample yesterday. Will report the results when I get them. Nothing like objective data to prove/disprove long held opinions!!

Thanks for the oil anaylis charts. I'll still change my oil once a year. ( per theBRP owners manual) Modern oils are great and we still change them at intervals. I'll just change mine before winter storage.

Lew L