F3 SE6 and "Target" RPM's?

[AeroPilot]

Recommended RPM to shift up

"At what RPM is it recommended that you shift up?" Since the OP was referencing the 1330 SE6 platform specific to the F3 bike, I suggest that he learn to shift by "feeling" and listening to his bike, with the guide of the ECO recommended shift points! I dont own his ryde and I doubt that I ryde like him, but BRP has provided a very good learning tool that will keep his bike revving and singing for a long time should he choose to learn from his bike starting with the engineers "suggested" shift points. My wife rides her 16 F3 and has over 50,000 miles on the 1330 SE6 platform, and I would NEVER suggest how she should shift and ryde her ryde!!

I would shift down to pass and kick the revs up a bit on my bike and have occasionally mentioned that, but I ryde my 15 RT SE6 and am still adjusting at 25,000 miles. I do recognize that the bike sounds "happy" when it hits the RPM where ECO says it recommends to shift to the next gear, but that green arrow can light up as low as 1700 RPM if I'm poking along on a down grade, and usually 2700 rpm on the flats going from 5th to 6th gear. I only check out the ECO as I am curious about what the BRP engineers seem to think is a good economical shift point for the way the bike RPM and I assume engine torque/vaccuum or other parameters tell it.

Your recommended RPMs will be specific to each shift and road parameter and desire for speed or to "smell the roses" My only suggestion is RYDE, RYDE, RYDE and sense and listen to your ryde. It will tell you when its happy. If you want to learn more about your bike (or your horse), listen to it and spend some time learning how it feels.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

2,500 to 3,500 unless I'm really hitting it. We just got back from the hills and mountains of East Tenn and we kept our PRM's at 3,000 and abovein the mountains. There were a few curves and elevational changes that we had to drop down to 1st gear even. Wife is now a pro at keeping the RT no lower than 3k when ryding in the mountains. I checked over our Sena 10's on what gear she is in at points against what I am doing with the F3 and she was matching me almost perfectly.

As far as the ECO shift points, they are crap. Way too low. It may not be possible to lug this awesome engine, but since this engine has only been out 3 years (I bought the RT the first year they came out) you really cannot say what long term effect will occur from lower RPM's. Knowing how much testing goes on by manufacturers, they usually will do endurance tests, but it is not cost effective to test an engine for 10 years to see what low shift points will do before bringing it to market. So that leaves the consumer (us) to be the final testers as we use the product. The 1330 seems to just hum at around the 3k area, so I keep it around there, even around town. The added advantage with running your RPM's higher is that the byke is more responsive in case you have to power out of the way from someone.

I am sure that there are as many right answers as there are ryders. We just each need to find what works for us and is best for the 1330.

 

[AeroPilot]

F3 RPM will be 12% higher RPM at same speed in same gear than RT due to extra teeth

You are right Doc that the RPM's above 3000 put you on the first torque plateau of 89 lb-ft until you reach the "next Plateau" which is where peak reported torque of 96 lb-ft is reached. But for most practical purposes the Rotax 1330 is an exceptionally flat torquer. So ryde, ryde, ryde and smyle, smyle, smyle. The sales brochure shows the high torque in every gear from 2500 RPM to 6000 so your choice, your ryde. There is no wrong answer. The advantage you have on your F3 is that you can be pulling 94 lbft at 4500 in fifth while the RT is still on the first plateau at 4000 RPM in fifth gear at the same speed, (unless your wife drops a gear, heehee!)hyea:

 

[TRLBLZR1]

Because its a triple and "feels smooth", it probably doesn't appear to ever be lugging. On the other hand, I was always led to believe that a triple cyl. engine technically can't be truly balanced due to it's configuration. Funny how "perceptions change" over time. In the snowmobile industry, I never liked a triple cyl. machine. 3 of everything that could "let go" (break.) ~ But I sure like it in this machine!

 

[SmokeyXXX]

New to Shifting

I am new to the world of shifting - first bike is the one I have now - 2015 F3-S SE6. I shift up at 3500 - 4000, and usually allow it to downshift on its own but if I do downshift it's at 2500 or less.

Some say that this engine likes to be tested - but I've never had mine over 5500, personal preference, but I baby her.

40 mph range, I'm in 4th gear - usually stay there until over 50 when I shift to 5th - anything above that I ride in 6th.

 

[Easy Rider]

I was always led to believe that a triple cyl. engine technically can't be truly balanced due to it's configuration.

Why ?
360 degrees divided by 3 equals 120 degrees.....even.
Having one fire every 120 degrees should make for smooth, balanced operation.
And guess what......it DOES !!

 

[Easy Rider]

When you ask the mechanics about MODERN engines: they say that there's nothing to worry about.
ESPECIALLY in computer -controlled engines that also control the shift points.

Again, oversimplified and a gross generalization that is NOT true.

Any engine with an manual transmission can be "lugged" to the point of damage.

Your "especially" is true but without adding that qualifier, your other statement and claim that it is not possible to damage "modern engine" by lugging is just simply not true.

 

[Slowpoke387]

Some of us mentioned this in one of your previous threads.

From a personal standpoint, I shift between 3500 and 4000 most times. I like seamless, quiet, shifts. Also, like to let the machine downshift on its own--unless I need the power now--then I will manually downshift.

The 1330 does have a lot of low end torque.

Another .02 for the pile. :yes:

my answer was similar to yours except the downshifting method. I always downshift before the machine does it because if i wait for that it waits far too long and does not rev match at all correctly. The result is a terrible inertia effect and the worst downshifts ever. Yours downshifts smoothly on its own?

 

[Roadster Renovations]

You are right Doc that the RPM's above 3000 put you on the first torque plateau of 89 lb-ft until you reach the "next Plateau" which is where peak reported torque of 96 lb-ft is reached. But for most practical purposes the Rotax 1330 is an exceptionally flat torquer. So ryde, ryde, ryde and smyle, smyle, smyle. The sales brochure shows the high torque in every gear from 2500 RPM to 6000 so your choice, your ryde. There is no wrong answer. View attachment 150152 The advantage you have on your F3 is that you can be pulling 94 lbft at 4500 in fifth while the RT is still on the first plateau at 4000 RPM in fifth gear at the same speed, (unless your wife drops a gear, heehee!)hyea:

She is learning to run a gear lower than me because of that, especially in the mountains!

 

[AeroPilot]

We too seem to run in the same gear most of the time..

The fact that the RT can usually run smoothly with the F3 in the same gear attests to the 1330 ACE being able to pull well even though it's running at 12% or so less RPM. But all the wife needs to do to get me scrambling is to slow her F3 down on a long grade to 45-50 mph, and then roll on the throttle and watch me and the RT fade in the distance.
I think she learned that trick when I was riding her 11 RT hand-me-down..

I'm just pleased that she gets the same gas mileage I do even with higher revs down the interstate. I guess pushing less wind and less weight does make a difference.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

The fact that the RT can usually run smoothly with the F3 in the same gear attests to the 1330 ACE being able to pull well even though it's running at 12% or so less RPM. But all the wife needs to do to get me scrambling is to slow her F3 down on a long grade to 45-50 mph, and then roll on the throttle and watch me and the RT fade in the distance.
I think she learned that trick when I was riding her 11 RT hand-me-down..

I'm just pleased that she gets the same gas mileage I do even with higher revs down the interstate. I guess pushing less wind and less weight does make a difference.

The wife has been running her RT in ECO mode to try to equal my mileage on the F3, but she still has to start station hunting before me.....

 

[Bob Denman]

I found that I was usually able to get about a tenth or so more miles per gallon, than did the guys on F-3s that I rode with... :dontknow:
But it was always REALLY close! :2thumbs:
I figured that the lower gearing of the F-3 is what made the difference...

 

[stebrock]

When someone is asking for advice and you give "your opinion" it might be helpful to state that that's all it is... Your Opinion!

From the "Do's and Do Nots for New Spyder Owners (can be found in the General Discussion threads)

SHIFTING SUGGESTIONS:
(The shifting-point suggestions for the 1330 and 900 series engines are explained separately.)

Shifting the 1330 models:

The “ECO” mode shift coach suggests shifting at the following rpm’s:
1st to 2nd: 1,800 rpm’s
2nd to 3rd: 1,950 rpm’s
3rd and up: 2,200 rpm’s

When manually shifting the 1330, it seems too many are over thinking it. If you are not using the ECO-mode, then just shift at around 2500-3000 rpm’s. That shift-point falls right at the beginning of the first-level power band, which is perfect. (Funny how that seems to work! See below.)

1330 Engine Power Band (Dyno-Chart Data):

1st level power band begins at approximately 2,500 — 2,700 rpm’s and remains flat until 4,000 rpm’s.
2nd level power band begins at approximately 4,500 — 4,700 rpm’s and peaks at 5,000 rpm’s.
After 5,000 rpm’s the power declines slightly until reaching 6,000 rpm’s; where the power rapidly declines; thus proving any increase in rpm’s above 6,000 rpm’s on the 1300 is inefficient and fruitless with regard to obtaining additional power and torque.

What does this mean?
It means shifting below 2,500 rpm’s can put an extra load on the machine when accelerating above a relaxed pace. While it may appear the engine has plenty of power below 2,500, it, in fact, is not producing peak performance power at that point, thus, shifting below the power band makes the engine work a bit harder. While the manual suggests shifting below 2,500 rpm’s, it is doing so with the thought the operator is accelerating at a very relaxed pace.
Some have a misperception with regard to shifting a machine within its peak power band. It is often perceived to require harder/faster acceleration; when, in fact, that is not the case.
It simply means you hold the machine in a gear longer before shifting. One does not have to takeoff from a dead stop like a drag racer to shift within a vehicle’s power band. Again, you simply hold it in each gear for a bit longer until the rpm’s reach the power band.
American’s have long been known to have a preference to low-torque machines. With that often comes the tendency to want to shift to a vehicle’s highest gear as soon as possible, and leave it there… at least until the engine begins to shake and shudder. Not a good idea with any vehicle.

Why is this important?
Over a short period of time and mileage, there would probably be little noticeable affect or damage to a machine operated below its power band under normal, relaxed conditions; however, over a longer-term, there certainly can be a excessive wear along the machine’s drivetrain.
In addition to seeking peak vehicle performance, expert/professional drivers & riders always operate their machines within its power band at all times for added control and handling. Consider it a safety precaution.
Any vehicle operated outside of its peak performance band is operated with some loss of control and efficiency — varying, of course, to the degree it is operated out of its power band.
For most owners of the 1330 engine, its lower torque seems to satisfy the inherent American “need” for an engine operating at a lower rpm.
NOTE: There is NOT a “Trailer Mode” for the 1300 model.

1330 "ECO" Shifting:(Check your manual) (Provided by PMK)
The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting.
Activating the ECO Mode:
Press the "MODE" button for 2-seconds while in the Main Screen.
When activated, a green arrow will alternate with the gearbox position indicator to indicate the optimal timing to up-shift the transmission.
NOTE: The Gearbox indicator will return when the transmission is shifted.
De-Activating the ECO Mode:
Press the "MODE" button for 2-seconds while in the Main Screen.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: (provided by Lamonster) The throttle map changes to a more progressive acceleration; rather than a linear one. During hard acceleration there will not be an indication to shift -- the ECM understands you are accelerating and will not recommend a shift at this time. Only when the vehicle speed and acceleration have stabilized for a certain time and the ECM judges there is enough engine torque available in the next gear to keep the same speed and acceleration will an upshift indication be displayed.

Hope this helps... Rick

 

[Bob Denman]

"The “ECO” mode shift coach suggests shifting at the following rpm’s:
1st to 2nd: 1,800 rpm’s
2nd to 3rd: 1,950 rpm’s
3rd and up: 2,200 rpm’s"

One problem: You actually can't use those shift-points unless the ECO Mode is engaged. :dontknow:

 

[AeroPilot]

F3T gets slightly better gas mileage than my RT... both SE6

"The wife has been running her RT in ECO mode to try to equal my mileage on the F3, but she still has to start station hunting before me."

Our experience as well!! Even though the F3 is turning 12% more revolutions every mile I guess its pulling easier with less wind resistance.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

"The wife has been running her RT in ECO mode to try to equal my mileage on the F3, but she still has to start station hunting before me."

Our experience as well!! Even though the F3 is turning 12% more revolutions every mile I guess its pulling easier with less wind resistance.

I think it's also a weight factor. We have the Rack and tools on the RT. I haven't actually explained that to her yet.......probably be in big trouble when she figures that out.....pps:pps::gaah::gaah::roflblack:

 

[Bob Denman]

Doc,
:shocked: If you value your life::lecturef_smilie: do NOT use the term: "Junk in her trunk!" nojoke

 

[Roadster Renovations]

Doc,
:shocked: If you value your life::lecturef_smilie: do NOT use the term: "Junk in her trunk!" nojoke

Heck, I know better than that! Her top case has turned into her "purse". I try to stay out of there!

 

[Bob Denman]

:yikes: Back away from the bike!!! :shocked:

I had to clean the top trunk of mine out before trading it in...
Two hairbrushes (I'm bald!)
A spork from Taco Bell
about a dozen napkins
A granola bar from about 2014
three LED flashlights (Okay: they were mine!)
An eyeglass lens cleaning kit
one glove (?)

:dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

 

[ARtraveler]

:yikes: Back away from the bike!!! :shocked:

I had to clean the top trunk of mine out before trading it in...
Two hairbrushes (I'm bald!)
A spork from Taco Bell
about a dozen napkins
A granola bar from about 2014
three LED flashlights (Okay: they were mine!)
An eyeglass lens cleaning kit
one glove (?)

:dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:

Add cough drops in the tank box and you have Linda's RT. :roflblack::roflblack: