yet another oil question

[BajaRon]

I know i'm gonna get flamed for this.... My best friend is a master mechanic in the truest since of the word, I would put him up against anyone. That said... after riding my spyder for a few hours ( read Testing ) I asked him about the CLUTCH FEEL he said what about it its fine no adjustment necessary, why do you ask. I told him since I have owned my spyder I have used WALMART 10-40 full synthetic in it ( 2 + yrs.) and its an " M" oil and that's a bad thing. he said BS your clutch is fine. SOOOOOO do what you think is best for you but I will continue to use The bad stuff. PS if I paid attention to every thing the computer said I would only have ridden the spyder for about 7 hrs. and would have had to sell my house and given all the money to the dealer to pay his bills........The kicker is it still wouldn't be fixed :gaah::roflblack: Mike

I agree with Scotty. And why would anyone flame you? If you chose to run buttermilk in your Spyder, hey! It's your machine to do whatever you like!

What the JASO rating does is scientifically test and quantify how a particular oil will affect the friction component of a wet clutch. This is done with 3 tests. Dynamic, Static and Stop Time. Pretty self explanitory but you can read the article for yourself here. http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf

There are 4 ratings with MB being the least desirable for wet clutch applications, then MA, MA1 and MA2 being the most desirable.

Any wet clutch will get some friction no matter what kind of oil you use. The issue here is, will you get ENOUGH friction to prevent slippage. BRP has determined the minimum amount of friction needed and specified oils that meet that minimum.

If you are very gentle with the clutch, are lightly loaded and do not put much stress on the clutch then you may be fine with an oil outside of the BRP parameters. Then again, you can get some slippage and not realize it. Some slippage will lead to more slippage and eventually, premature failure.

Add to this that cheaper oils use friction modifiers which break down quickly. Especially in a high RPM, high performance engine like the Spyder. So after a few hundred miles the modifiers that cause clutch slippage may have gone away. Of course that doesn't say much for quality in protecting your engine but your clutch may be hooking up just fine.

Oil issues don't usually show up right away. It is an accumulating effect that may show up with very expensive consequences down the road. Some decide to pay for very good oil that meets specs as insurance. Some don't. Only time will tell who is right.

It may be that both oil decisions will give equal service. But the odds are against it.

 

[sandrunr1]

Anyone can use whatever oil you want. I for one am sticking to what works best for me. Until i retired, I built sandrails, VW motors and transmissions. From the ground up. I built hundreds and the best substitute for oil, brake fluid, any fluid when in an emergency was Budwieser. So, i may put Bud in my :spyder2: just in case. And if you get thirsty, drain a little out and oh well I guess I better shutup.

 

[boborgera]

any fluid when in an emergency was Budwieser. So, i may put Bud in my :spyder2: just in case. And if you get thirsty, drain a little out and oh well I guess I better shutup.

That's a waste of good beer, You should drink it first, then put it in the crankcase.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

OIL

That is some incredible info Ron, Scotty. Sooooo, the botom line here seems to be that anyone can make any claims they want about what they are selling you ! so if it's slippery you probably have an equal chance of getting it right or wrong, because the truth is also a slippery thing in the oils game :gaah: Mike :thumbup:

 

[SpyderFun]

What issues? Blended oils are exactly what you are recommending against. Blended is simply a marketing term designed to convince the buyer that mixing petro based and synthetic oils together in one bottle is a good idea. What difference does it make if you mix them in the bottle or if they mix inside the engine?

Many years ago there was a wide difference between oils and it was possible (though not likely) that mixing one with another could possibly case an issue. But it was more a matter of marketing and customer ignorance that the manufacturer's used to build consumer loyalty to their brand than an attempt to actually educate anyone.

With today's rating standards things have really come to a more level playing field. Still, customer ignorance is wide spread and everyone from manufacturer's to the dealerships manipulate the facts to suit their sales.

First, the 'Synthetic' oils that Castrol (which is what BRP uses) are not really synthetic. They are chemically altered petro based oil. That is why Amsoil and similar products are much superior to the BRP 'Full Synthetic'. Amsoil uses a completely different, very stable base oil and engineers it on the molecular level (an expensive process). Castrol type 'Synthetics' use chemical additives that break down (a much less expensive and less stable process). They are not true synthetic oil but most consumers don't know the difference. But that is another story altogether.

Even Amsoil says that you can mix their product with other, like rated products. They don't recommend it because it degrades performance (which is exactly what 'Blended' oils do). But it won't cause any damaging reaction.

In my experience there may be more misinformation in the area of lubricants than with any other subject.

In my professional experience of using both petro based and synth based oils on engines that had more sensitive tolerances, I have read many MSDS sheets as well as the manufacture specs with regard to compatibility between oil types and manufacturers of same. Maybe it is THEIR way of maintaing control on the consumption of their product but all have said essentially the same, keep synth oils with synth oils and petro based with petro based. I am not an "Oil Engineer" or a "Marketing Specialist" just a retired mechanic/inspector/instructor with over 25 years in aviation. Rotax engines are used in light aircraft thus my point of not mixing - as in manufacturer to manufacturer or synth to petro.

Ron you do make a very critical point and that is education by the consumer is needed and rarely given. Which is why the best way to make this issue a "No Brainer" is to keep it simple - pick one and keep to it!

My final 2-cents is no matter what you use, just make sure it is approved by the manufacturer or you may void THEIR warranty if there is EVER an engine related issue. Oh and make sure it is serviced correctly as in "Full" when done which is a critical thing with the SE5 trans.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

SYN OIL

Well I have come back from the DARK SIDE. I have mended my ways. I am now using PENZOIL full syn non- SM yes non-SM It's only .65 per qrt. more and damn we're worth. :agree: :2excited: :hun: :shemademe_smilie: :thumbup: But I still get at Walmart

 

[BajaRon]

That is some incredible info Ron, Scotty. Sooooo, the botom line here seems to be that anyone can make any claims they want about what they are selling you ! so if it's slippery you probably have an equal chance of getting it right or wrong, because the truth is also a slippery thing in the oils game :gaah: Mike :thumbup:

I am somewhat sorry you came away with this impression. While it is true that Synthetic does not necessarily mean synthetic (in almost all cases it does not), the JASO ratings (which is another aspect altogether) are quite accurate and a manufacturer can't just slap whatever JASO rating they want on their bottle. There are actually fines for a product that fails to meed JASO specs and oil samples are randomly taken and tested.

There is a range for each JASO rating but the oil must fall within that range to qualify. So there are at least some uniform standards that oils must meet.

So while it is a travisty to tell consumers that they are getting synthetic oil when they are not (with the blessing of our court system), other aspects are much more trustworthy. And in the end, the information about synthetic oil is readily avaliable for anyone who would like to know.

 

[BajaRon]

In my professional experience of using both petro based and synth based oils on engines that had more sensitive tolerances, I have read many MSDS sheets as well as the manufacture specs with regard to compatibility between oil types and manufacturers of same. Maybe it is THEIR way of maintaing control on the consumption of their product but all have said essentially the same, keep synth oils with synth oils and petro based with petro based. I am not an "Oil Engineer" or a "Marketing Specialist" just a retired mechanic/inspector/instructor with over 25 years in aviation. Rotax engines are used in light aircraft thus my point of not mixing - as in manufacturer to manufacturer or synth to petro.

Ron you do make a very critical point and that is education by the consumer is needed and rarely given. Which is why the best way to make this issue a "No Brainer" is to keep it simple - pick one and keep to it!

My final 2-cents is no matter what you use, just make sure it is approved by the manufacturer or you may void THEIR warranty if there is EVER an engine related issue. Oh and make sure it is serviced correctly as in "Full" when done which is a critical thing with the SE5 trans.

I agree. It really is stupid to mix synthetic (even the fake synthetic) oils with standard oils. But not because it will be hazardous. I wouldn't do it because mixing a small amount of higher quality product with a large amount of a lesser quality product just makes no sense (or cents either if you figure the cost). All you are doing is greatly degrading the better oil or slightly improving the lesser oil.

Would you take 10% delicious, clear artisian spring water and mix it with 90% tap water? Sure, the mix might theoretically taste a bit better and have just a bit less impurities. But you don't find anyone doing it. They either go for 100% pure water or they go with the tap. Because to do otherwise is a waste. Same with oil.

 

[NancysToy]

I'd just like to say a word about "mixing oils". I speak from my experiences as a maintenance supervisor for a large complex with a lot of machinery running under harsh conditions. (That is the polite term for a do-do plant.) Some 25-30 years ago, when synthetic oils started making a strong push into industry, the manufacturers recommended fully flushing the machine when switching from dino to synthetic (or vice versa). This was because the oils were truly incompatible, and mixing even a small quantity of dino could cause viscosity changes, reduction of other important properties, and even coagulation. The synthetic oils carried a warning to this effect. As time went on, the products got more sophisticated...and more compatible. Most warnings were dropped.

No manufacturer wants to risk his product causing damage to an engine, a situation that could result in expensive class-action lawsuits. If there was a compatibility problem with today's oil, it would surely carry a warning on the label. I think one of the reasons for better compatibility is the modification of dino oils to make synthetics. Pure synthetic oils would not be (and were not) very compatible, yet oils with a dino origin would be more suitable. While I lament the lack of standards in the labeling of "synthetic" oils, I applaud the change in formulation that has made them less toxic if mixed.

The amount of oil retained in an engine that has been properly drained, with the filters changed, is minimal. I don't believe that this small quantity of oil will contaminate the new oil to any significant degree. Owners should not construe the phrase "mixing dino with synthetic" to mean that they should stick with whatever the engine was delivered with. As a matter of fact, many engines are delivered with a dino "break-in" oil, with a recommendation to switch to synthetic after 1,000 miles or so. It is no longer necessary to flush an engine to switch oils. Should you add a quart of dino to synthetic, or vice versa?...in my opinion never. Can you switch to blend from synthetic or synthetic from blend (or dino) without consequence?...you bet. I will continue to use an oil that meets BRP specs, either full synthetic or blend. I will continue to use a known good brand name or the BRP oil. Sometimes, and on some machines, I switch between dino, blend, and syn. I have never seen any consequences but a change in oil consumption from that practice. Others may choose to do differently, but this approach has always worked for me, and has yielded thousands of trouble-free miles.

 

[SpyderFun]

...Some 25-30 years ago, when synthetic oils started making a strong push into industry, the manufacturers recommended fully flushing the machine when switching from dino to synthetic (or vice versa). This was because the oils were truly incompatible, and mixing even a small quantity of dino could cause viscosity changes, reduction of other important properties, and even coagulation. The synthetic oils carried a warning to this effect...

:agree: and it was, and still is in some cases, the same for hydraulic oils as well.

...Sometimes, and on some machines, I switch between dino, blend, and syn. I have never seen any consequences but a change in oil consumption from that practice...

Gotta ask.....why switch between oils within the same machine?

 

[Scooter]

iAuto transmission, RT, Clutch Question

Wife and I went to the Tail of the Dragon, NC. going down the hill I used the engine to slow us down, 4th and 3rd gear, would doing so, dammage the transmission?? during the ride my transmission light start to flash on and off on the computer screen. I stoped and checked the oil level, it was OK, the light went out and it ran OK the rest of the day. When I got home (Florida) I took to the dealer, they said they had to replace the clutchs. By puting it in a lower gear down hill, like you do in your auto, do dammage to the clutches??

 

[BajaRon]

Wife and I went to the Tail of the Dragon, NC. going down the hill I used the engine to slow us down, 4th and 3rd gear, would doing so, dammage the transmission?? during the ride my transmission light start to flash on and off on the computer screen. I stoped and checked the oil level, it was OK, the light went out and it ran OK the rest of the day. When I got home (Florida) I took to the dealer, they said they had to replace the clutchs. By puting it in a lower gear down hill, like you do in your auto, do dammage to the clutches??

I am not an RT Guy but I would not think shifting to a lower gear for compression braking would cause undue wear on the clutch plates. The RT should not allow an unsafe or damaging downshift. Someone else will chime in here with more info, I'm sure.

It does make me wonder if the oil you're using may not allow enough wet plate friction. That could certainly give you a negative effect and some unnecessary clutch wear.

 

[NancysToy]

.....Gotta ask.....why switch between oils within the same machine?

I have switched back and forth on my BMW a few times. I'll get tired or the bad habit of R-bikes puking out a cloud of oil smoke for ten minutes after being parked on the sidestand. This is much worse with full synthetic, which "creeps" up the cylinder walls and sticks to the walls so much that the rings slip past the slippery stuff. Then I get tired of the noisier engine on dino oil, and worry about the high mileage on the clock, and switch back. Neither satisfies me completely. I'm sure it would does not make any difference whatsover...it is just a whim on my part. I'm not recommending the practice, just saying it has never hurt anything....plus it lets me use whatever I have handy in the garage.

 

[SpyderFun]

....plus it lets me use whatever I have handy in the garage.

The ultimate bottom line! :roflblack:

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

TO DOWNSHIFT OR NOT TO DOWNSHIFT THAT IS THE QUESTION !!!!!!!

Think of it this way what would you rather buy new brake pads or a new transmission/clutch ???? Sure racers do it but they almost never pay for their own parts. :thumbup::shemademe_smilie:

 

[Questions]

These Guys Rock

:agree: Guy's like these two and a few others like them are a wealth of knowledge and why I am hooked on this forum. Use API SL rated full synthetic keeps my life simple. Thanks for the info and watch out for new "snake oil"!

That is some incredible info Ron, Scotty. Sooooo, the botom line here seems to be that anyone can make any claims they want about what they are selling you ! so if it's slippery you probably have an equal chance of getting it right or wrong, because the truth is also a slippery thing in the oils game :gaah: Mike :thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

....plus it lets me use whatever I have handy in the garage.

Be careful not to grab a can of Coke or a bottled water! :yikes:

 

[Mickay]

Quality test XPS oil

Hi,
Come from the BRP XPS OIL web page.


Whether it is a premium Synthetic 2-stroke engine oil or Premium Chaincase Oil, these requirements and processes are the same: Test it, improve it, test it again, and again until it is the absolute best lubricant available for your equipment.

The average XPS lubricant product takes 3 years of development and testing before it is ready to be released to the consumer. The recently released Next Generation Lubricant family is a prime example of this process.

BRP spent over 2 million dollars developing the current line up of 2T and 4T and ancillary products. That development required over 70 individual vehicle test units, each logging over 300 hours (12,000 miles / 20,000 Kilometers) on snow, water, dirt, or asphalt!

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