traction control?

[Firefly]

FWIW, I purchased some wire taps and I plan to experiment with dampening/reducing the Steering Angle Sensor (SAS) voltage feedback. This would maintain the VSS function but delay the throttle kill response based on the steering angle. If I can achieve a 30% reduction in steering angle response, I'll be happy.

Dampening the SAS signal appears to be straightforward. And, the SAS is easily accessible from the front after jacking up the spyder. :thumbup:

Interesting idea and totally different than what I'm working on. I bookmarked that page and will be interested to know how this works out for you, although it seems the basis of that article was to reduce the amount of power assist to give the driver more road feel.

 

[StriperKing]

If you guys figure out how to reduce the steering angle without a total bypass, I want to know all the details!

 

[NancysToy]

FWIW, I purchased some wire taps and I plan to experiment with dampening/reducing the Steering Angle Sensor (SAS) voltage feedback. This would maintain the VSS function but delay the throttle kill response based on the steering angle. If I can achieve a 30% reduction in steering angle response, I'll be happy.

Dampening the SAS signal appears to be straightforward. And, the SAS is easily accessible from the front after jacking up the spyder. :thumbup:

Interesting idea and totally different than what I'm working on. I bookmarked that page and will be interested to know how this works out for you, although it seems the basis of that article was to reduce the amount of power assist to give the driver more road feel.

When you are experimenting, remember that the SAS and the STS readings must coincide, or the VSS kicks in your brakes to adjust your steering line. The yaw sensor may enter into the equation, too. This is far more complex than it appears at first glance.

 

[altonk]

Before you go altering things I would read this very carefully
The vehicle dynamics model for the spyder is complex and the nanny is all about controlling yaw rate

The best algorithms work under braking heavy braking so the trick to fast cornering is to carry alot of speed in and trail brake


http://members.rennlist.com/jandreas/EvolutionOfVDC-BOSCH.pdf

As far as the stunt stuff go for it I'll see ya on YouTube

If you want fast lap times let the VSS be ur teacher if it limits engine speed what you did was a mistake and would slow ur lap times

When they to VSS out of F1 cars laptimes went down and they have the best drivers on earth

 

[SSG Bean]

I like that. And sad to say, you will always find people helping you keep your job! I just find it hard to understand.

On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life ... Maybe they should hand out Cliffs Notes with motorcycle licenses. Just because we've tried to make things as safe as possible and mitigate risk, some do their best to make sure this literature written in 1859 is still relevant.:dontknow:

 

[BajaRon]

I don't want to make it sound like I am against taking any risks. Life itself is a risk that you don't get out of till you die.

Plus I did spend a few years fighting fire, etc., which is not considered safe.

The key here is not risk alone, but risk vs gain.

With most things the risk factor comes on slowly as the gain factor increases. And usually it is a linear (or at least reasonably stepped) incline.

In the beginning I contemplated altering the VSS (or disabling it). But I am convinced that the risk factor with the Spyder becomes very steep beyond the parameters of our VSS system.

Certainly, BRP has built in a safety factor so that none of us are close to the edge.

But not too far from here, there begins a steep downward slope which comes fairly quickly to a vertical drop in this risk vs gain equation.

For me... It's just a matter of not needing to go there.

I know the VSS has made me a better rider. And as has been mentioned already, when the nanny kicks in, it's because you aren't riding very well.

When you ride her correctly, there is no nanny effect.

 

[NancysToy]

I'm an old FE fuel dragster driver, fuel bike rider, skydiver, pilot, SCUBA instructor, etc., so I am not opposed to calculated risks...with the right preparation, training, and protective gear. Experimenting with this within a controlled setting, and slowly finding the limits, is sort of like being a test pilot. The trick is to know your limitations and be aware of those of the machine. One cannot recklessly forge into this, if it is attempted. It would be interesting under controlled conditions..if only to find out what a splendid and useful job the nanny does for us.

I do agree with Altonk, however. Riding the Spyder within the window afforded by the VSS improves one's skills, and makes it corner as fast as possible. If the nanny is kicking in hard, you are making a mistake in your technique. That makes sense, since the nanny likes smooth, and smooth is the fastest way around the course. I wholeheartedly agree that the Spyder loves trail braking, and can corner much faster if you do it.

Whether working out a solution the engineering limitations, or practicing that corner 20 times a day until you get it right, it is all about maximum performance. Just do it safely! It takes a few good brain cells and maybe a bit of willpower to master the machine without getting hurt. All machines and all riders have their limitations...and when those limitations are exceeded, it usually hurts.

 

[altonk]

As I mentioned before for 6000 euros you can get a fully programable one with mapping switches from Bosch motorsports but they haven't released the three wheeled dynamic model to the motorsports group yet and you would have to redevelop the model

If they do though I will be their first customer

However I've learned to put my much wider and softer than stock tires at their adhesion limit under heavy braking in the corners and to three wheel drift out of corners at low steering angles
If you wanna dirt slide get a sprint car

 

[altonk]

In addition to the steering and braking dynamics I've now got turbo lag not much mind you and that burst of power it produces thar can pretty much completely eliminate adhesion at any reasonable cornering speed

I've got the stickiest tires reasonable for the street

BTW I have measured lateral Gs of 1.3 for hundreds of milliseconds after a lot of smoothing so it isn't vibration or flex

What this machine needs is enough power to drive the drag of some big wings to produce 4 or 5 hundred pounds of downforce

I think I have the power I can't get it all to the wheels

Aero is in development but thats another thread

 

[Firefly]

When you are experimenting, remember that the SAS and the STS readings must coincide, or the VSS kicks in your brakes to adjust your steering line. The yaw sensor may enter into the equation, too. This is far more complex than it appears at first glance.

My mod isn't going to mess with the steering or yaw sensors at all.

All I want is to be able to occasionally start from a stop, turn and spin the tire without the sputter-- once I'm up to speed (20 or so - as determined by the front wheels) -- then the nanny can have at it.

 

[lamarguy]

All I want is to be able to occasionally start from a stop, turn and spin the tire without the sputter-- once I'm up to speed (20 or so - as determined by the front wheels) -- then the nanny can have at it.

I share the same goal. I'm trying to achieve a bit more VSS "flexibility" at low speeds when turning the handlebars (at a reasonable angle) and accelerating.

IMHO, the spitting and sputtering when the spyder is well under control is overreaching and annoying. Supposedly, VW/Audi cars have a similar stability control system and those systems allow the user to turn off the "engine torque reduction" feature.

Firefly, I'd love to hear about your possible solution.

 

[BajaRon]

I share the same goal. I'm trying to achieve a bit more VSS "flexibility" at low speeds when turning the handlebars (at a reasonable angle) and accelerating.

IMHO, the spitting and sputtering when the spyder is well under control is overreaching and annoying. Supposedly, VW/Audi cars have a similar stability control system and those systems allow the user to turn off the "engine torque reduction" feature.

Firefly, I'd love to hear about your possible solution.

I agree here. Though if you execute it correctly, you can light up the rear tire while going around a corner without embarrisment. But I've done it wrong more than I've gotten it right.

It is a trip when you get it right though, as you straighten out and the rear wheel gets traction.

It's not a drag bike but just getting that smooth power transition is reward in itself.

 

[StriperKing]

I support you guys 100%. Just a little less restrictions at very low speeds. Not everyone is just starting to ride and that is what it feels like it is set up for. I have some sharp 90 deg. corners getting to my house that I have to drop to 2nd gear, almost 1st. When I try to accelerate out of the turns it sputters and falls on its face. I have raced atv`s in the past and just want to come out of the corners at 10 MPH, accelerate maybe a little harder than some but in my comfert zone but given the fact that I am turning sharp I can not. Maybe not everyone understands what is being sought out here. No one wants a dangerous ride or to be unsafe especially at higher speeds. Mine may be way to sensitive but I can not even turn left or right at a stop sign unless I baby it around. Anything more and . I am going to order the Elka shocks but that still will not help the steering angle. Just my opinion, sorry for being long winded.

 

[IWN2RYD]

I support you guys 100%. Just a little less restrictions at very low speeds. Not everyone is just starting to ride and that is what it feels like it is set up for. I have some sharp 90 deg. corners getting to my house that I have to drop to 2nd gear, almost 1st. When I try to accelerate out of the turns it sputters and falls on its face. I have raced atv`s in the past and just want to come out of the corners at 10 MPH, accelerate maybe a little harder than some but in my comfert zone but given the fact that I am turning sharp I can not. Maybe not everyone understands what is being sought out here. No one wants a dangerous ride or to be unsafe especially at higher speeds. Mine may be way to sensitive but I can not even turn left or right at a stop sign unless I baby it around. Anything more and . I am going to order the Elka shocks but that still will not help the steering angle. Just my opinion, sorry for being long winded.

You are not alone. My dealer could never duplicate my frustration as you so eloquently explained here... I live in a hilly area that makes for a lot of angled turns, not to mention a lot of well... turns!! lol... They have miles of flat lands around them, and 50 mph roads with hills.. Not the same as 10-25 mph turns that cuts our power off even though we are not even close to being unsafe for the turn. Heck even from a stop sign I can turn right or left a certain degree and kill the power.

Another example... If I am loaded up in the RT and my wife is riding... I hit the gas on a hill in Seattle from a dead stop to tur right or left... And I embarrassingly fall forward because the power falls off... then shoots back up even though I am still in the very same turn angle... However I am now on the flatter surface.

This is why I am asking for a "Sport" and "Touring" switchable option. I completely understand why they do not want an "Off" option (And why I expressed my thoughts the way I did above). But come on.

I do hope with the new stiffer spring shocks for the 2011 RT's will help the sensitivity of the sensor since it seems to me it is about the center of gravity most of the time when I am having issues in the turns at lower speeds. If not I will add the Anti-Sway bar and go from there...:2thumbs:

 

[Dwight]

Stripperking, IWN2RYD,
This is exactly what I would like to see corrected. It seems most people assume when I want to adjust the VSS it's because I want to excede my abilities no mater what they are. A quick (usually not very quick) right or left turn in town will almost always result in the VSS chopping the throttle. When the VSS chops the throttle, instead of just reducing it, bad things can happen. A chopped throttle with the front wheels turned sharply left or right results in the bike wanting to continue the turn. This effect put me in the oncoming lane once before I could correct it. No harm done that time and now I know it can happen so I'm ready for it. This happened with my speed below 15mph! Some sensible software tweeks would cure this. Is that too much to ask? In another post I suggested that BRP could give us the choice by supplying a Touring, Sport, or Rain button with appropriate settings of traction control and VSS.

Dwight

 

[BajaRon]

Stripperking, IWN2RYD,
This is exactly what I would like to see corrected. It seems most people assume when I want to adjust the VSS it's because I want to excede my abilities no mater what they are. A quick (usually not very quick) right or left turn in town will almost always result in the VSS chopping the throttle. When the VSS chops the throttle, instead of just reducing it, bad things can happen. A chopped throttle with the front wheels turned sharply left or right results in the bike wanting to continue the turn. This effect put me in the oncoming lane once before I could correct it. No harm done that time and now I know it can happen so I'm ready for it. This happened with my speed below 15mph! Some sensible software tweeks would cure this. Is that too much to ask? In another post I suggested that BRP could give us the choice by supplying a Touring, Sport, or Rain button with appropriate settings of traction control and VSS.
Dwight

Granted, the VSS is not perfect for every situation. I think we all understand that BRP had to balance several factors (including varying skill levels) and come up with a 1 size fits all system.

Given this, I think they did a very good job. But I agree that the low end VSS might be better with some tweeking. But it's one of those 'You'll have to try it to see' things.

 

[Campverdefela]

Stripperking, IWN2RYD,
This is exactly what I would like to see corrected. It seems most people assume when I want to adjust the VSS it's because I want to excede my abilities no mater what they are. A quick (usually not very quick) right or left turn in town will almost always result in the VSS chopping the throttle. When the VSS chops the throttle, instead of just reducing it, bad things can happen. A chopped throttle with the front wheels turned sharply left or right results in the bike wanting to continue the turn. This effect put me in the oncoming lane once before I could correct it. No harm done that time and now I know it can happen so I'm ready for it. This happened with my speed below 15mph! Some sensible software tweeks would cure this. Is that too much to ask? In another post I suggested that BRP could give us the choice by supplying a Touring, Sport, or Rain button with appropriate settings of traction control and VSS.

Dwight

:agree:HELLO...BRP....HELLO

 

[sinko]

traction control

Stripperking, IWN2RYD,
This is exactly what I would like to see corrected. It seems most people assume when I want to adjust the VSS it's because I want to excede my abilities no mater what they are. A quick (usually not very quick) right or left turn in town will almost always result in the VSS chopping the throttle. When the VSS chops the throttle, instead of just reducing it, bad things can happen. A chopped throttle with the front wheels turned sharply left or right results in the bike wanting to continue the turn. This effect put me in the oncoming lane once before I could correct it. No harm done that time and now I know it can happen so I'm ready for it. This happened with my speed below 15mph! Some sensible software tweeks would cure this. Is that too much to ask? In another post I suggested that BRP could give us the choice by supplying a Touring, Sport, or Rain button with appropriate settings of traction control and VSS.

Dwight

i agree our new cars here you can have it off or on drivers choice Sinko:clap: