Steering almost got me killed!

[NancysToy]

I have tried real hard to be positive here lately on the forum, and try to discuss these things without emotion or bashing. Like the sudden rash of fires this summer, though, I can't help being concerned over this one. Granted these incidents are a tiny percentage of the total Spyders made, but these are very serious problems, potentially deadly. I have lived my adult life pretty much at "Mach 2 with my hair on fire," as the saying goes. I have had one incident early on where the Spyder suddenly steered the opposite direction under certain conditions. I recovered, but then feared for my novice rider wife, and instructed her to watch out and we practiced what to do in such a situation. Now I worry about her again.

I have not done the steering update because I always felt it was a Band-Aid and the true cause was not being addressed. I do not recommend that approach, it is just my choice for the present. Eventually I will need dealer service and it will be done without my consent. So be it. The majority of owners have had the update. They may not have problems. Then again, if they do, they are likely to be scary and unexpected. I think it is at least appropriate for us to be aware, to discuss it, and to recommend reporting it. This is neither whining nor BRP bashing, IMO, just a good, lively discussion. Hopefully it will save some riders some grief and also instigate a proper cure, or at least a means of diagnosing which Spyders have this potential.

 

[Smylinacha]

So I can go on this NHTSA and fill out a report even though I think it was fixed when I was at the BBQ? If so, I'll do it tomorrow. Seems quite a few have had this problem. And I thought it was the road surface at first too. Then I figured I should keep my mouth shut cuz HDX would think I was whining about something or another again. I really don't want to see this happen and someone gets seriously hurt or killed.

And although I love computers - I'm beginning to not like them equipped on vehicles. Computers tend to screw up alot - at least the ones at work and my laptop sure does. I'd hate to have the thing reboot when I'm ryding on it!

Honest - it scares me, and it will make me broke in the long run - I really had NO IDEA it costs so much to keep up and I've never had bikes that cost that much, or cars for that matter, for the upkeep. I am thankful nothing major has gone wrong but it's always in the back of my mind now.

 

[Way2Fast]

I had a very odd thing happen with my steering today as well. I was on the interstate running about 70mph when I felt the steering pulling a bit to the left. I gently pulled back to the right and the bike's reaction was scary. It jerked and clicked to the right, and I didn't overcorrect to get it back to center. It wasn't enough to pull me out of my lane. I thought it was a quirk of the road, but didn't dismiss it.
2 miles later it started pulling again. Before I corrected this time, I slowed to about 62, eased the handlebar over with the push/pull method, and it jerked and clicked again. I was so fortunate that I was a mile from my dealership. My mechanic immediately hooked the Spyder to the computer and checked for any missed updates, upgrades, etc. There weren't any. He went through numerous screens and got to steering and the graphic was off a bit. In layman's terms, the bike's computer was reading that the steering was running off-center and was trying to correct it by pulling it to the left. The graphic was like looking at a clock. The hour hand should have been reading 12 o'clock, but it was displaying 1 o'clock.
That was reset to the 12 o'clock position, and my Spyder seems to be rolling along OK.[/QUOTE


I'm glad that those of us relaying their experiences here were lucky enough to regain control of the Spyder and avoid an accident.

If the steering was running off center as the dealer stated, I would imagine that the handle bars would not be dead on when riding in a straight line, but rather turned slightly in one direction or another. Correcting this would require a mechanical adjustment to the steering linkage or a wheel alignment.

 

[phantom13lady]

to GARY...I have had all recalls, updates/upgrades. The first thing checked today was that. We looked twice just to be sure nothing had been missed. My dealer/mechanics are on top of that stuff ALL THE TIME. I love 'em for it!

to WAY2FAST...Handlebars WERE dead-on center. I wasn't drifting to the left. I could feel the handlebars trying to pull to the left.

 

[Way2Fast]

to GARY...I have had all recalls, updates/upgrades. The first thing checked today was that. We looked twice just to be sure nothing had been missed. My dealer/mechanics are on top of that stuff ALL THE TIME. I love 'em for it!

to WAY2FAST...Handlebars WERE dead-on center. I wasn't drifting to the left. I could feel the handlebars trying to pull to the left.

Very similiar to how mine behaved....only difference is the pull to the left was sudden and violent enought to make the vehicle actually change lanes. When trying to regain control no 'clicks' were heard and there was no noticable increase in steering effort. Scary !!

 

[Gimpy Girl]

Sure am glad your OK! That had to be a very frighting issue to have had to encounter. Hope that you can get your Spyder fixed quickly and will be able to save some of your vacation.

 

[Firefly]

Why is it when someone has an opinion that differs from yours, you freak out?

Also he DID have problems - lots of them - his problems took him out for quite a few weeks of his ryding season. And he's had constant little things going on ever since he got the thing.
:cus:

I am beyond p*ssed right now. I do like my Spyder but I don't like seeing all these people w/ problems. Sure some don't have anything going on but makes me wonder what stick I'm gonna draw.

And this forum is a place for ALL opinions - the good, the bad and the ugly.

As for Ralph Nader, nah, never mind, I'll get banned. Nuff said.

First off---- I didn't freak out --- but people seem to be on some kind of BRP-bashing frenzy lately - and I for one am getting sick of it.

Frankly-- unless YOU have problems - then YOU have nothing to complain about. You cannot file a report with the NHTSA unless you personally are having the problems.

I speak as someone who DID have the steering problem - and one of those that filed proper reports to get the steering fixed. Did I :cus: about the steering out here--- YUP --- because it happened to ME--- but then I took the steps to get it fixed.

Am I going to complain about the shaft splines?? No -- because it hasn't happened to ME.

Some seem to just be looking for problems -- and letting others having issues project onto them. If you're having problems--- get them fixed, file reports -- or sell your Spyders.

From the way it sounds - you should own a HD - because everyone knows they never break down----:roflblack:

Most people are VERY happy with their Spyders. Sorry to hear you're not. Sounds like selling time for you and roaddog if you're really that unhappy.

 

[Firefly]

+1 Smylinatcha

Firefly could show more concern,these issues are big maybe even life threatening and certainly not the norm in motorcycle riding.

I'll give you they are probably rare but to the owner they are Big issues that may have a Big expense.

There's a big difference between showing concern and just bashing and complaining like many are doing.

Is the steering a big issue - yes-- and as one of the original owners that had such problems - and filed the proper reports -- I fully understand the concern. But rather than just bash BRP like many are doing - why not offer some help.

Comments like "I wish I hadn't bought this" or "the Spyder is a maintenance nightmare" are not helping anything.

There isn't a Spyder on the road that isn't under warranty - so while these few issues might be 'big' - the expense isn't --- as these problems are 100% covered under warranty.

 

[QuadManiac]

It is my understanding that, during the update process, a re-zero of the steering postion sensor and of the steering torque sensor is required. I would posit that this may not be being done properly in some cases, by some techs, so the computer thinks that either the steering is not centered, or that a torque is being applied to the steering when it is not.

One of the issues mentioned recently in this forum was resolved when the dealer re-zeroed (calibrated) one or both of these software variables.

This is just supposition, but might make some sense of these symptoms.

And, not to start a flaming debate, but I'd rather Corvairs were still on the road and Ralph Nader were retired.

 

[Dragonrider]

Maintence costs for the Spyder are a fraction of those required for the big Beemers (LT/GT) - a standard service ran $800 to $1200, every 6K miles.

Indeed, the Beemers have problems too - final drives, slave cylinders, electric center stands, and on. However, other than the leaky gas quick releases, nothing approached fatal...

I have yet to cross 1K miles on my Spyder, and given the problems I have had, it won't leave the low speed errand service it sees now. I have a bullet proof Valkryie for all the rest.

It's too bad - I looks cool, and is a hoot to ride, but my confidence in it's quality ranks with the Yugo.

I do not intend to sell it, hopefully BRP will step up and really fix them - somewhere during my 5 years of warranty. But those considering stepping up to the RT at 2X the price, should really think hard before parting with the cash.

 

[jwfranklin]

.

And, not to start a flaming debate, but I'd rather Corvairs were still on the road and Ralph Nader were retired.

:agree:

 

[tjfischer]

It is my understanding that, during the update process, a re-zero of the steering postion sensor and of the steering torque sensor is required. I would posit that this may not be being done properly in some cases, by some techs, so the computer thinks that either the steering is not centered, or that a torque is being applied to the steering when it is not.

One of the issues mentioned recently in this forum was resolved when the dealer re-zeroed (calibrated) one or both of these software variables.

This is just supposition, but might make some sense of these symptoms.

And, not to start a flaming debate, but I'd rather Corvairs were still on the road and Ralph Nader were retired.

-

:agree: There are certain steps the tech must do before applying the DPS update.

As I understand it. The tech should a least use a messuring tape, to ensure the the front of the tires and the back of the tires are are an equeal distance from the center of the bike. This essentially will put them in a "ZERO" position, once this is done then the UPdate can be applied.

Lets pretend your wheels are turned 3 degrees to the right when the update is applied. The computer will think that 3 degrees to the right is centered and straight. I think this would cause your left turns to be just slightly more difficult than your right ones.

I may be way off base on that scenario, but it makes sense to me.

 

[QuadManiac]

One of my areas of technical expertise is in control systems... Following is a simple Control Systems 101 discourse so as to explain what I think may be happening here.

Electric assist power steering is a classic example of a feeback control system, typically consisting of a sensor or sensors (in this case a steering angle and steering torque sensor) and (again in this case) a computer that reads sensor information and generates a drive signal for a motor which will try to drive the sytem (in this case the steering shaft), causing the sensor values to return to zero - as an example: You turn the steering, generating a torque, the computer reads the torque value and drives the motor to try to zero out that torque.

Most classic feedback control (FBC) systems use a feedback algorithm called PID (for Proportional, Integral, Derivative) to minimize the error between sensor measurment and the desired outcome. In the case of I (integral), the error signal is effectively added to itstelf over time until the control signal becomes so large that the motor will force the error to zero. In many computer controlled FBC systems, there is either a time limit or an upper error numerical limit to this error sum... in some cases if it is exceeded, a malfunction is assumed and the number is reset to zero or to some lesser value - THIS is where I think some of these 'jerk' and 'click' motions may be occurring.

With an offset error in the steering sensors (perhaps because they were not zeroed correctly), it is entirely possible that the error sum is growing quickly, under some circumstances, to a point where it is flagged by the computer as a mistake and then zeroed... likely causing, first, the push to one side as the error sum grows, and then, as the rider tries to counter it, a quick zeroing, causing the dynamics of the power steering to shift almost instantly from fighting the rider to trying to assist him/her.

Hope I didn't bore too many. This was a rather rudimentary explanation that does not take all possible cases into consideration, and is likely fraught with minor errors... however, if I were managing these software engineers (which IS one of the things I do for a living), this is where I'd have them looking first.

Regardless of whether my hypothesis of cause is or is not on point, it is obvious to me that the feedback control system driving the power steering motor is, indeed, generating some very spurious control signals.

 

[sleepman]

First off---- I didn't freak out --- but people seem to be on some kind of BRP-bashing frenzy lately - and I for one am getting sick of it.

Frankly-- unless YOU have problems - then YOU have nothing to complain about. You cannot file a report with the NHTSA unless you personally are having the problems.

I speak as someone who DID have the steering problem - and one of those that filed proper reports to get the steering fixed. Did I :cus: about the steering out here--- YUP --- because it happened to ME--- but then I took the steps to get it fixed.

Am I going to complain about the shaft splines?? No -- because it hasn't happened to ME.

Some seem to just be looking for problems -- and letting others having issues project onto them. If you're having problems--- get them fixed, file reports -- or sell your Spyders.

From the way it sounds - you should own a HD - because everyone knows they never break down----:roflblack:

Most people are VERY happy with their Spyders. Sorry to hear you're not. Sounds like selling time for you and roaddog if you're really that unhappy.

I normally stay out of the "Spyder problems" threads, but I just can't help myself on this one.

My Spyder was a maintenance nightmare, I counted among my problems the relay issues, bad exhaust gaskets, bad battery, steering problems, and bad head gaskets.

The two reasons I ditched my Spyder were the amount of time it spent in the shop for the various issues and the fact that at the time BRP would not admit there was steering issue. An issue which it appears still isn't 100% solved.

As for people voicing their concerns, it's allowed. Anyone who has a Spyder may experience anyone of these problems and so why not voice an opinion over it.

As for HD, well every HD I've ever owned spent less time in the shop combined then my Spyder did. The Spyder takes top place, in the list of many bikes I've owned, as being the most unreliable.

 

[pitmon]

Don't get me wrong... I luv my spyder, but what happened yesterday could have ended up really bad, not only for me but for the poor soul that I could have hit... not to mention my poor husband who would have watched it all. However, now that I have calmed down and put some thought into it I realize that I actually felt this starting Tuesday while I was on my way to the dealer for the second update, however it was very windy when I went that day and since it was just a brief glitch I just thought it was wind blowing me around... now I realize it was this problem just starting. This was before my second update.

I got the second update done that day and headed home which is about 60 miles and the bike ran fine, but I was on the interstate at 70 mph with the wind blowing and really didn't notice anymore steering glitches. I was just happy it wasn't backfiring and sputtering anymore.

I did feel this before I got to atlanta, but again I thought it was the conditions we were riding in. The bike would sort of drift to the right or left on its own, however it would correct for me. I have a tall shield and the wind was blowing bad so i kinda thought the wind was getting behind the shield and pushing me. But it was happening at highway speeds of 70 and 75 mph. When I merged off of I-75 onto 575 it went haywire on me, I almost got hit twice. I had no control it was just all over the road. I am sure I overcorrected because I was trying to keep from getting hit. There was a lot of loud clicking noises and the wheels were jerking left and right and taking the bike all over the road. Scared me good. This would have been about 400 miles after the second update.

I pulled off as soon as I could and shut her down hoping to reset whatever had happened. I sat there for 15 to 20 minutes and started her up and tried it again. This time much slower than 75 mph. I noticed right away that it was still happening, so we just went slow till we got to a place where we could safely pull off and call a dealer. The tech at cummings dealership told me that in all probability it was the steering box and that would have to come from brp. I checked the fuses and nothing seems wrong there. I can barely steer the bike without the power steering so I am afraid to get into traffic with it.

We rented a room and my husband left this morning to go home and get our truck and trailer. I pray for him a safe return, it's cold out and he is on his bike going home. It's 360 miles home and then back with the truck and trailer.

I pray no one gets hurt over this problem. I believe everything happens for a reason, it's good that my problem happened here and not going down Deals Gap, that would have been worse, and that was where we were headed. God has a way of looking out for us crazy people... that's why I have survived for so long LOL. This problem will be fixed and life will go on. I am just very happy no one got hurt... this time.

 

[NancysToy]

One of my areas of technical expertise is in control systems... Following is a simple Control Systems 101 discourse so as to explain what I think may be happening here.

Electric assist power steering is a classic example of a feeback control system, typically consisting of a sensor or sensors (in this case a steering angle and steering torque sensor) and (again in this case) a computer that reads sensor information and generates a drive signal for a motor which will try to drive the sytem (in this case the steering shaft), causing the sensor values to return to zero - as an example: You turn the steering, generating a torque, the computer reads the torque value and drives the motor to try to zero out that torque.

Most classic feedback control (FBC) systems use a feedback algorithm called PID (for Proportional, Integral, Derivative) to minimize the error between sensor measurment and the desired outcome. In the case of I (integral), the error signal is effectively added to itstelf over time until the control signal becomes so large that the motor will force the error to zero. In many computer controlled FBC systems, there is either a time limit or an upper error numerical limit to this error sum... in some cases if it is exceeded, a malfunction is assumed and the number is reset to zero or to some lesser value - THIS is where I think some of these 'jerk' and 'click' motions may be occurring.

With an offset error in the steering sensors (perhaps because they were not zeroed correctly), it is entirely possible that the error sum is growing quickly, under some circumstances, to a point where it is flagged by the computer as a mistake and then zeroed... likely causing, first, the push to one side as the error sum grows, and then, as the rider tries to counter it, a quick zeroing, causing the dynamics of the power steering to shift almost instantly from fighting the rider to trying to assist him/her.

Hope I didn't bore too many. This was a rather rudimentary explanation that does not take all possible cases into consideration, and is likely fraught with minor errors... however, if I were managing these software engineers (which IS one of the things I do for a living), this is where I'd have them looking first.

Regardless of whether my hypothesis of cause is or is not on point, it is obvious to me that the feedback control system driving the power steering motor is, indeed, generating some very spurious control signals.

I have had some experience with programming and tuning PID controls myself, and your explanation makes very good sense. It especially makes sense when you remember that BRP's update was, in part, to remove the "dead zone" at steering center, so the sterring would be more immediately responsive. For now I will skip the update, until I have no other choice. I still attribute my previous incident to a combination of a sharp, off camber turn, transitioning from a down hill road to an uphill one. I think the VSS read the yaw sensor and tried to "save" me. Under some conditions these electronic devices can be too smart for their own good. Sometimes even too smart for our technicians. At those times operator experience and skill must take over. I'm very glad Pitmon had that experience and skill in this situation.

 

[Smylinacha]

Those steering problems I had have not come back - I don't even know if they were fixed. Sure had both updates but so did others so I don't know if they are just lying dormant or if they actually got fixed.

I don't think you like negativity so maybe there should be a folder added just for you called Mr. FireFly's Neighborhood - we can have the Mr. Roger's theme song music playing in the background for ya. Won't have to have a single dose of reality in there!:2thumbs:

First off---- I didn't freak out --- but people seem to be on some kind of BRP-bashing frenzy lately - and I for one am getting sick of it.

Frankly-- unless YOU have problems - then YOU have nothing to complain about. You cannot file a report with the NHTSA unless you personally are having the problems.

I speak as someone who DID have the steering problem - and one of those that filed proper reports to get the steering fixed. Did I :cus: about the steering out here--- YUP --- because it happened to ME--- but then I took the steps to get it fixed.

Am I going to complain about the shaft splines?? No -- because it hasn't happened to ME.

Some seem to just be looking for problems -- and letting others having issues project onto them. If you're having problems--- get them fixed, file reports -- or sell your Spyders.

From the way it sounds - you should own a HD - because everyone knows they never break down----:roflblack:

Most people are VERY happy with their Spyders. Sorry to hear you're not. Sounds like selling time for you and roaddog if you're really that unhappy.

 

[Roaddog2]

Unless you are personally having these specific problems - I don't see why you have such an opinion that the Spyder is suddenly a 'maintenance nightmare'. Most riders are not having any such problems. Have you?

Seems the handful of people recently having problems is bringing others out of the woodwork to bash BRP. You can go to any bike forum online and fine similar issues from a handful of owners - why should the Spyder be immune to this?

If you are personally having such problems - I fully understand why you would be upset - and you might need to make a decision to move on to another bike that is without any problems.

If you are not personally having problems with your Spyder - why complain?

BTW --- it's Ralph Nader --- and much like him getting rid of cars like the Corvair - if he had the power he would probably make all motorcycles illegal for highway use.

End of rant--- I think everyone needs a good RIDE !

I have been personally having these problems 15 months of ownership 19k miles over 50 days of shop time about 8 serious warranty claims if I didn't pay cash for it I would have stopped making payments a long time ago and guess what my splines appear to have some slack now but nobody wants to look at it to it happens and though I have the ability to pull it why should I if its under warranty and believe me will move on after I get some more use out of it resale value around here is like 7k and to make matters worse I put about 3k in mods thinking I would be in my garage for a while yes I have a lot of fun with this thing but my opinion is and will not change it is a maintenance nightmare.I just don't create post so thats why you don't see my problems :doorag:

 

[tatt2r]

Total bummer. Sure sounds like the DPS is bad or the software update caused a glitch.

Have you checked your relays and fuses? You can remove the DPS fuse (can't recall which one it is off hand) and therefore disable the power steering. You should then be able to ride it without worrying about the power steering causing any conflicts--- but the steering will be tight.

I wouldn't try to ride in the Smokies without the power steering - but you should be able to do highway riding to get home. The power steering is basically shut off at highway speeds anyway.

Other than removing that fuse and riding it---- I would NOT attempt to ride it.

my power steering never worked from day one ... and i drove 18000 miles that way ...its not that bad ... dropping it of in the morning for gps to be replaced and almost want to leave it ass is but im getting screwy codes sometimes while shifting...but if u pull fuse and shut down power streering i drive it that way i rode to lamonts from new hampshire 960 mile one way and it was fine without it ...:thumbup:

 

[MizMuffet]

Sure glad you're ok.
Riding it with the power steering disconnected isn't bad at all. In fact, when I bought mine, the DPS was out and the new part was on order, so I drove it for the 1st 4 weeks with no power steering. You'll notice the difference in slow speeds, parking, etc. that it takes muscle to turn, but at higher speeds, it's not much different.