Sensors, steering and co-inkydinks.....

[ataDude]

... As you may have read in the past, I have had a few infrequent times where the power steering (DSP) "caught" in a curve and was very hard to push through the "catch".

On two other occasions (five minutes apart), while on a straight-a-way, the steering actually pulled me into the lane immediately to the left. (No, it was not the highway design, either... I was watching carefully after the first time because it scared the crap out of me.) Thankfully, that was on west bound IH-40 in Oklahoma on an early Sunday morning with little, or no, traffic.

Just this last weekend, I had a combination of the "steering catch" and gear position errors at the same time... at least, it was the first time that I noticed the two issues at the same time.

On this last ride, the gear position indicator sometimes would indicate an "E" when in 5th gear... or indicate 4th when I was actually in 5th. (No, not soft shifting, either.) At the same time, the steering problem/"catch" occurred.

As we have a CAN Bus (Controller Area Network)... probably a Bosch, if I had to bet... which was created for automobiles to eliminate wiring... I'm guessing that maybe sub-areas are conflicting... or the controller is going nuts not knowing what to do with what signal. I know they're not supposed to... dominant versus recessive signals... identifier bits and the like... but...

I saw one post a week or so ago that said an uneven, rough idle was "fixed" after a new gear position sensor was installed under warranty... an added plus for the person. BTW, I've had this uneven idle since new and BUDDs said nothing was wrong.

I'll get the dealer to order a new gear position sensor before I take it in... maybe in a week or two.

However...

For you bit-heads... can errors from one device (sensor) cause errors in another? I thought all of the bits and bytes were specifically identified so that this couldn't occur... that the CAN controller referee'd the traffic?

If so, could a continual error from one device prevent other devices from functioning correctly? I understand that the signals are not timed... that if a "collision" of data occurs, the non-dominant signal just fades away into nothingness... to be retried later.

I'm just curious... always want to know more.

BTW, does this controller run Windows? :joke: Oh, no... not another blue screen! :yikes:

 

[Spyderman62]

In a word - yes. Since you know that a Can-Bus is a system for allowing computer sensors to "talk" and eliminate the wiring, then you should also know that one of the main drawbacks is also its strength. The system can sense the slightest extra or loss of current. IE, a blown tail lamp bulb will cause a fault that puts the system into "limp mode". As you have theorized, the transfer of bytes of info should only travel one direction, but..... If a sensor or device is not broken, just not perfect, it would be enough to allow for a intermittent issue to show up from time to time, but not enough of a failure to alert the BUDDs system. On that thought, yes, the slightest amount of moisture where it is not supposed to be, or dirt, or human error when the sensor was built, or.. the list is long I am sure. I think you are on the right track by having the shift indicator sensor replaced, and then see what issues are fixed by doing so. I also believe, that as more problems are diagnosed, both us and the mechanic will be better able to use that info later on. Please let us know how this turns out. I for one will be curious to know. One of the interesting aspects of the Spyder is the use of modern technology. While we may be some of the first recipients of that technology in use, I am sure it is also an indication of the direction that the motorized world is going. I am still amazed each time I ride how incredible a machine the Spyder is.

 

[ataDude]

Thanks!

I didn't mention it before, but I did have the opportunity to remove the DPS fuse yesterday (to disable power steering) when this happened. After about ten miles, I came to the conclusion that I absolutely love the power steering assist! :clap:

If you think the Spyder tires you out now, try that for a while. You'll redefine the word "tired".

.

In a word - yes. Since you know that a Can-Bus is a system for allowing computer sensors to "talk" and eliminate the wiring, then you should also know that one of the main drawbacks is also its strength.

The system can sense the slightest extra or loss of current. IE, a blown tail lamp bulb will cause a fault that puts the system into "limp mode". As you have theorized, the transfer of bytes of info should only travel one direction, but..... If a sensor or device is not broken, just not perfect, it would be enough to allow for a intermittent issue to show up from time to time, but not enough of a failure to alert the BUDDs system.

On that thought, yes, the slightest amount of moisture where it is not supposed to be, or dirt, or human error when the sensor was built, or.. the list is long I am sure.

I think you are on the right track by having the shift indicator sensor replaced, and then see what issues are fixed by doing so. I also believe, that as more problems are diagnosed, both us and the mechanic will be better able to use that info later on.

Please let us know how this turns out. I for one will be curious to know. One of the interesting aspects of the Spyder is the use of modern technology. While we may be some of the first recipients of that technology in use, I am sure it is also an indication of the direction that the motorized world is going. I am still amazed each time I ride how incredible a machine the Spyder is.

 

[ataDude]

One more pertinent tidbit of info from page 191 of my original 2007, first-edition, service manual (I'm bored today... not piddling or mod'ing):

"The DPS uses the following parameters:

- Battery voltage

- Engine RPM

- Gearbox position

- Vehicle speed

- Torque sensor

- Steering angle"

So, gearbox position data is a direct input into the assisted steering circuit!


Plus, there is another sensor in the DPS unit (the torque sensor built into the DPS unit) that I wasn't aware of. Also from the manual:

"The steering assist level is dependent on the handlebar effort, the steering angle and the vehicle speed.

- The greater the handlebar effort (added: from the torque sensor), the greater the assist will be.

- The slower the vehicle speed, the greater the assist will be.

- When handlebar is in the straight ahead position, there is no steering assist.

- The lesser the handlebar is turned, the greater the steering assist will be. "

Ta da.....

.

 

[ataDude]

Update: Just ordered the sensor... new part number shows a replacement... MSRP is $99... minor discount available from my dealer.

Original part number is 420266165. Will be cross-referenced against the new number on BOSS-Web.

I'm putting this in myself to prevent days in the shop. I may... or may not... have to have the dealer re-zero to sensor through BUDS. We'll see.

.

 

[NancysToy]

Update: Just ordered the sensor... new part number shows a replacement... MSRP is $99... minor discount available from my dealer.

Original part number is 420266165. Will be cross-referenced against the new number on BOSS-Web.

I putting this in myself to prevent days in the shop. I may... or may not... have to have the dealer re-zero to sensor through BUDS. We'll see.

.

Gee, they should have at least provided the part for free. None of these are two years old yet, so they are all on warranty.
-Scotty

 

[sabunim5]

+1 to Scooty's reply. Warranty item if defective.

 

[DragonSpyder]

I have the same dealer problem. Found another dealer that agreed to have me bring it in and wait while they diagnosed the problem. Well, supposedly they did not experience the problem but then called BRP who had them check for the position sensor fault codes and sure enough. So, they are ordering... backordering... the part. I will bring it in and again and wait for them to fix it when the time comes. If you don't wait for it they just push it in the corner until they have time to get to it.

 

[ataDude]

I'm a happy camper...

... got around to changing the gear position sensor today. The same five left-side panels need to be removed as are removed for an oil change... so I did that, too. And, no, I didn't use a new o-ring and crush washers. pps:

Once installed, the sensor immediately sent the correct gear positions (!) and the uneven idle seems to be gone... now about +/- 50 rpm... certainly not the +/- 100-150 rpm from before. Note: per the shop manual, perform the replacement while in neutral and battery disconnected.

The power steering interference also appears to have been fixed but... it was intermittent, anyway. More road testing tomorrow on that.

Picture 1: The sensor. I got a new production lot (package dated 11/19/2008...both old and new were made in the UK, BTW). The pic is of the old one. Note that it is a Rotax part... I thought it might be a Bosch.

Picture 2: Where it resides... or hides... depending on your point of view.

Picture 3: After front sprocket removal.

Once the front sprocket is removed (16mm, impact wrench... no gear puller needed in my case), the removal/replacement is fairly easy. Unhook the reverse cable and remove three Allen-head screws and the reverse cable return spring. Line up the sensor (keyed shaft) and re-install.

Keep track of how much you loosen the drive belt... number of turns of the Allen wrench... I loosened seven full turns on each side. Reset when installing and then tweak the tension adjustment (I use a $12 gauge from NAPA).

Total time including an oil change... 2 hours. Sensor was $90... a trade-off for no down-time -or- extended shop time (days) trying to find the problem which did not leave recoverable codes.

Yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :2thumbs:

 

[Lamonster]

Great post Bro. I wonder if that's what Ron's problem is. He has no power steering.

 

[ataDude]

Great post Bro. I wonder if that's what Ron's problem is. He has no power steering.

Well, that is certainly different from my trike's symptoms.

Are you aware that there are two fuses for the DPS... one in front and one under the seat? The one up front (5 amp, I think) is for the "system"... the one in the rear (40 amp) is for the DPS motor.

My steering issues were very intermittent... and timed (mostly) with gear shift indicator errors. See post one in this thread.

But... the fact is that BRP has a new batch of sensors with new part numbers as a replacement for the original. Has to be something hiding there... somewhere.

.

 

[Lamonster]

I've checked both fuses, the power connection and everything else I can think of. He's not throwing any codes yet he has no power steering at all. :dontknow:

 

[barb36jack31]

Wow! I am some impressed with the way you guys dive into the guts of your Spyder and make corrections. I admit I am somewhat intimidated by the complexity of the machine. I grew up on the old British singles and twins. i.e. the thickness of a matchbook cover is just fine for the points setting. Also you can sync a pair of sidedraft carbs by holding a piece of tubing over the throat of first one carb and then the other and adjust the needle valve until the whistle sounds the same from each carb. Stuff like that. Things like the BUDDS computer check and a gear shifting sensor curing an erratic idle absolutely facinate me. Keep up the good work, guys. I learn something new every day!

Jack H. 77 yrs old, riding for 62 years

 

[ataDude]

Thanks. I'm hoping for a return of points and carbs... pretty simple, then. :joke:

.

Wow! I am some impressed with the way you guys dive into the guts of your Spyder and make corrections. I admit I am somewhat intimidated by the complexity of the machine. I grew up on the old British singles and twins. i.e. the thickness of a matchbook cover is just fine for the points setting. Also you can sync a pair of sidedraft carbs by holding a piece of tubing over the throat of first one carb and then the other and adjust the needle valve until the whistle sounds the same from each carb. Stuff like that. Things like the BUDDS computer check and a gear shifting sensor curing an erratic idle absolutely facinate me. Keep up the good work, guys. I learn something new every day!

Jack H. 77 yrs old, riding for 62 years

 

[kma10-4]

... got around to changing the gear position sensor today. The same five left-side panels need to be removed as are removed for an oil change... so I did that, too. And, no, I didn't use a new o-ring and crush washer. pps:

Once installed, the sensor immediately sent the correct gear positions (!) and the uneven idle seems to be gone... now about +/- 50 rpm... certainly not the +/- 100-150 rpm from before. Note: per the shop manual, perform the replacement while in neutral and battery disconnected.

The power steering interference also appears to have been fixed but... it was intermittent, anyway. More road testing tomorrow on that.

Picture 1: The sensor. I got a new production lot (package dated 11/19/2008...both old and new were made in the UK, BTW). The pic is of the old one. Note that it is a Rotax part... I thought it might be a Bosch.

Picture 2: Where is resides... or hides... depending on your point of view.

Picture 3: After front sprocket removal.

Once the front sprocket is removed (16mm, impact wrench... no gear puller needed in my case), the removal/replacement is fairly easy. Unhook the reverse cable and remove three Allen-head screws and the reverse cable return spring. Line up the sensor (keyed shaft) and re-install.

Keep track of how much you loosen the drive belt... number of turns of the Allen wrench... I loosened seven full turns on each side. Reset when installing and then tweak the tension adjustment (I use a $12 gauge from NAPA).

Total time including an oil change... 2 hours. Sensor was $90... a trade-off for no down-time -or- extended shop time (days) trying to find the problem which did not leave recoverable codes.

Yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :2thumbs:

do you think it's possable to change without completely removing sprocket? reason i ask is dealer replaced my gear position sensor and i ask'ed about belt tension being now belt seems to wonder more than it did before .and i can hear some noise from left rear now.did'nt believe it then and now i believe he out right LIED to me..he said he did'nt have to change any belt tension or alignment as he did'nt fully remove sprocket..:hun:
:dontknow:

 

[ataDude]

do you think it's possable to change without completely removing sprocket?...

It would be close... there is about a 1/4" flange with an O-ring that fits into the case. There's only about that much spare room behind the sprocket.

I think whatever time might be saved (not much, IMHO) by not removing the sprocket would be spent on fiddling... trying to get the sensor wedged back in there.

Service manual does say to remove sprocket.

Update: I went back and looked at the pics... pic #2 specifically. I don't think you could access the rear-most Allen screw with the sprocket in place. Keep in mind I didn't even try it when I had it partially apart and I'm always looking for shortcuts.

Another slightly different pic... you can just barely see the screw/washer I'm talking about:

 

[ataDude]

I'm convinced...

... three days and a couple of hundred miles:

1. No gear indicator errors.

2. Smoother idle.

3. No steering "burps".

Check my symptoms in the first post for more info. :2thumbs:

I am surprised that I didn't have to have the new sensor reset through BUDS but... heck, I'm not going to complain. :clap:

 

[ataDude]

I've been forgetting to post this incidental improvement but...

In addition to cleaning up the idle and steering, the gear position sensor replacement seems to make the engine less sensitive to warm up. Before, I needed three bars for a nice start-off... now, one or less. I always warm it up... just not as much.

Lots of side effects, it appears.

.

 

[NancysToy]

I've been forgetting to post this incidental improvement but...

In addition to cleaning up the idle and steering, the gear position sensor replacement seems to make the engine less sensitive to warm up. Before, I needed three bars for a nice start-off... now, one or less. I always warm it up... just not as much.

Lots of side effects, it appears.

.

Sounds like you cured a host of ills. The CanBus is a peculiar creature, and doesn't like strangers playing in its sandbox. Also sounds like you have a "normal" Spyder now. We have always been able to start off smoothly after the first bar. Now you can, too. So glad things are back to normal after the sensor change.
-Scotty

 

[ataDude]

Yepper... best $90 and two hours I've ever spent. Remember the multiple times of sync'ing the FI throttle bodies? Now, I know why that didn't work, too. :clap::clap: :clap:

I see BRP has recognized it as an SE problem... not sure of the status of SM recognition, though.

.

Sounds like you cured a host of ills. The CanBus is a peculiar creature, and doesn't like strangers playing in its sandbox. Also sounds like you have a "normal" Spyder now. We have always been able to start off smoothly after the first bar. Now you can, too. So glad things are back to normal after the sensor change.
-Scotty