"School" me on shocks

[Mazo EMS2]

So, in order to reduce the "roll" in corners, we turn up the shock preload, but it stiffens up the ride and makes it rougher. Then we lessen the preload to get a smoother ride, but increased "roll" in the corners. My shocks are stock on our 2010 RT, and I currently have them set in the #5 position to minimize the roll, but the ride feels kinda harsh. How can a shock be "smart" enough to give us the best of both worlds? I guess for $800/pair, they should even install themselves...:yikes: I knew I shoulda bid higher on the Elkas at Spyderfest.

 

[robmorg]

Well, when you are talking about "role in corners", part of the equation is the anti-swaybar. Do you have BajaRon's heavier bar installed, or are you using the OEM swaybar?

 

[Mazo EMS2]

Well, when you are talking about "role in corners", part of the equation is the anti-swaybar. Do you have BajaRon's heavier bar installed, or are you using the OEM swaybar?

Yes, I have the upgraded swaybar in.

 

[MikeT]

At Spyderfest Elka Stage 2s were being installed for $650.00.

 

[PMK]

As a suspension tuner for 40 years, I feel qualified to answer this.

Preload is not spring rate. A spring when compressed is stored energy or force.

The most supple ride, at correct ride height for the vehicle, often runs the least amount of preload while not being harsh or bottoming.

Typically, this is a balance of PROPER SPRING RATE, with proper preload.

So, it can be considered that you need firmer springs and less preload.

 

[Peter Aawen]

So, in order to reduce the "roll" in corners, we turn up the shock preload, but it stiffens up the ride and makes it rougher......

Unless I'm mistaken, despite whatever they may be called by BRP or anyone else, the devices on the shocks that you can adjust up &/or down are actually there to adjust the SPRING pre-load, & not really anything to do with the shocks apart from being mounted on the outside of them!!! As you adjust the settings on these things, you are really changing the height of the lower spring seat in relation to the fixed upper spring seat, which in effect tightens or relaxes the spring in its static ride position, so that when you hit a bump the initial spring setting with whatever rate it is built to unchanged from stock is tighter or looser as per your choice of setting... And the shock is completely unchanged from its stock settings too; you've only changed the spring preload, so it starts to do its thing sooner or later as dictated by the tightness/setting you've chosen! :thumbup: Oh, and whatever anti-sway bar you have fitted (stock or otherwise) is really another spring fixed across the front suspension between the wheels to help minimise body roll & a few other things.

Sooo, just like PMK said above, from what you've told us all this sorta implies that you actually need firmer springs with less preload on them rather than needing different shocks! Changing the shocks will change the way the springs behave AFTER they've taken up the first impact from a bump or resisted the first imposition of roll forces on a corner, and you shouldn't really expect your shocks to carry too much of the Spyder's weight in the way the springs do or to lift/lower the vehicle & change the ride height either, altho many do try to make their shocks that & then wonder why they wear out quickly or don't change the actual ride characteristics all that much!! But simply fitting shocks that are not just the generic 'one size fits most' that most vehicle manufacturers fit in order to get as many sales as they can for the least cost will really only give you more options to change &/or fine tune the way your suspension does its thing....

So could Elka's work for you? They might, but probably not & probably not in the way you expect, because they certainly won't be changing your spring rate or the spring preload, which (from what you tell us) seems to be at the cause of what you are concerned about - ie, you want less roll in the corners but would like a ride that is no harsher than what you have now, correct? The heavier BajaRon bar will have made some progress in that direction, & going even heavier again might improve the cornering roll a bit more, but is also likely to act more on both wheels in response to any bumps when driving straight, which will bring back that harsher ride again... I'd suggest you look at changing to firmer springs rather than different shocks. :2thumbs:

 

[PMK]

If you want to test an economical way to increase spring rate, obtain some of the Polaris "rubbers", then cut and install tham as mentioned here on Spyderlovers.

By deading one coil, it will increase spring rate.

You will also find, if you search, your machine may be a good candidate for the Pitbull shock relocators. The relocators mount to the frame and change the front shock geometry and by repositioning the upper mount, change the leverage ratio. The lower suspension leverage ratio requires less spring rate for the same force, or in your case, it will increase the spring force making the front firmer with less preload.

 

[BajaRon]

The 2010 RT had very weak shocks. If you can get a set of 2011 or 2012 shocks you will see an improvement as BRP put out a better OEM shock on these year model RT's.

Another alternative is to get a set of the Pitbull Shock Relocators. These move the top mount location out from the frame giving the shock better leverage against the suspension. This functionally increases dampening and spring rate.

I would go for the later model shocks first. Then, if that is not enough improvement, get a set of relocators.

 

[Sam Mac]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+do+shock+absorbers+do

 

[Cavman]

Ron right. I bought a set of 2012's from a guy and installed them on my 2010 and it helped. I also installed his better sway bar that that helped even better!

 

[Sam Mac]

Probably one of the best sources of info about shocks. http://www.penskeshocks.com/ I had a set of Penske double adjustable coil overs on my Harley Night Rod Special and they made a world of difference. I don't know if these guys are still there but these are the guys I worked with.
Eric Trinkley & Mike Himmelsbach.

 

[Mazo EMS2]

Thanks for the info guys. I think now that I have a good feel for how the bike rides, I might tinker with preload. It's maxed out now, so maybe I'll drop way down, then creep back to see how it does. Next step might be some stiffeners. Not a big deal. I like the way it rides, I'm just a "tinkerer"..LOL

 

[BajaRon]

Thanks for the info guys. I think now that I have a good feel for how the bike rides, I might tinker with preload. It's maxed out now, so maybe I'll drop way down, then creep back to see how it does. Next step might be some stiffeners. Not a big deal. I like the way it rides, I'm just a "tinkerer"..LOL

Really, do yourself a favor and get some 2011 or 2012 OEM shocks. They don't cost that much and at least you'll be tinkering with something that has a bit of potential.

 

[Bob Denman]

Having owned a 2010 RT: I feel at least somewhat qualified to speak about them...
Yes: as delivered six years ago; they'd lay over just like they were trying to tear the handlebar end caps off...
I first changed to a set of 2011 shocks. They were better... but I needed more!
So I added Ron's Anti-Swaybar, and a set of Elka Stage 1+R shocks.
Wow! :shocked: It tightened up the steering response to the point where I actually dialed-out some preload. I needed to slow things down a bit.
The ride was firmer (Maybe Harsh?), but the handling improvement more than made up for it!
I don't know anything about spring rates versus preload, but my butt figured out that the bike was handling way better, than BRP ever thought that it could! :thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

Having owned a 2010 RT: I feel at least somewhat qualified to speak about them...
Yes: as delivered six years ago; they'd lay over just like they were trying to tear the handlebar end caps off...
I first changed to a set of 2011 shocks. They were better... but I needed more!
So I added Ron's Anti-Swaybar, and a set of Elka Stage 1+R shocks.
Wow! :shocked: It tightened up the steering response to the point where I actually dialed-out some preload. I needed to slow things down a bit.
The ride was firmer (Maybe Harsh?), but the handling improvement more than made up for it!
I don't know anything about spring rates versus preload, but my butt figured out that the bike was handling way better, than BRP ever thought that it could! :thumbup:

All good if you have the budget. I think this guy is on a low cost quest. At least that's the angle I was addressing. There really is quite a spectrum of options for suspension improvements on the Spyder. But trying to get much of anything out of those 2010 RT shocks was pretty much a fail.

I always wondered if you drilled them out and put heavier shock fluid in them how much that might help. Still have limp springs but might help dampening. A poor man's fix back in the day.

 

[Bob Denman]

I always wondered if you drilled them out and put heavier shock fluid in them how much that might help. Still have limp springs but might help dampening. A poor man's fix back in the day.

I've wondered the same thing! I've been running your pre-load adjusters on my 2014, and left everything else alone. I was actually discussing the suspension yesterday with someone who is trading for a 2016 RTL, and I mentioned that the springs can overpower the damping ability of the shocks. nojoke
I know that you are a staunch advocate of "smooth moves" with the bikes. Unfortunately; I am not that smooth or talented, so here's what I'm feeling:
As I bend the bike into a curve; it leans over against the outboard shock. When it reaches the point of maximum compression; it rebounds! :shocked: Centrifugal forces then compress it back... and so on...
To my untrained butt: it feels as if the shocks need a bit more damping ability. :dontknow:

 

[BajaRon]

I've wondered the same thing! I've been running your pre-load adjusters on my 2014, and left everything else alone. I was actually discussing the suspension yesterday with someone who is trading for a 2016 RTL, and I mentioned that the springs can overpower the damping ability of the shocks. nojoke
I know that you are a staunch advocate of "smooth moves" with the bikes. Unfortunately; I am not that smooth or talented, so here's what I'm feeling:
As I bend the bike into a curve; it leans over against the outboard shock. When it reaches the point of maximum compression; it rebounds! :shocked: Centrifugal forces then compress it back... and so on...
To my untrained butt: it feels as if the shocks need a bit more damping ability. :dontknow:

Additional dampening might be a good idea. But the bigger issue is that you are probably trying to get your shocks to do the job of shocks and sway bar. (I'm sure you knew this was coming! ). In a brutally simplistic explanation, the shocks keep the tires ON the ground. And the springs keep the Spyder OFF the ground. These 2 components work with the sway bar to stabilize the Spyder when turning. The more aggressive and higher the speed, the more critical each component is to the process.

What you want to do is control lean momentum in a turn. The faster the turn the more momentum is generated (lean to the outside). Properly controlled, this lean goes to a point and stops. But if too much momentum is allowed, the Spyder leans beyond the point where it should have stopped and then 'Rebounds'. This can set up an oscillation effect until all forces are equalized. (Sorry, that didn't come out as simple as I'd hoped!).

Increased compression and rebound dampening can be a solution. But you would need to increase dampening beyond what it really needs to be to compensate for the weak sway bar. Improving sway bar function will not only slow lean momentum, but do things that the shocks cannot. Like increase traction on the inside front tire as well as the rear tire. The sway bar will also reduce down force on the outside front tire helping to control tire roll under.

Of course there is a lot more interaction between these various suspension components than I have described here. But the goal is to have each component balanced and working in harmony. And we all know how much you appreciate harmony Bob! hyea:

 

[Bob Denman]

Yes; I agree that harmony is important...

 

[BajaRon]

Yes; I agree that harmony is important...

A bit rough on the visual!

 

[Bob Denman]

But they have the voices of Angels...