Sachs Big Bore - Elka stage 4 - 2016 F3-L

[papanorm]

Madmartigan-glad to hear of your positive experience with the Elkas. Do you have plans to change out the front shocks as well?:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Peteoz]

Madmartigan-glad to hear of your positive experience with the Elkas. Do you have plans to change out the front shocks as well?:thumbup::thumbup:

I get the impression that Madmartigan might not have been using the two up shock due to his "cheap rear shock" comment, Norm. But I may be wrong, of course What Spyder are you running, Mad?

Pete

 

[PMK]

Your comment on pot holes tells me highspeed damping will be important to you. You pick up this adjustability with the stage 4 shock, so I would tell you its not just the adjustability in general but what specific needs do you gain. When you hit pot holes, they create highspeed wheel movement that can be felt as quite harsh impacts. The Spyder needs stiffer springs to keep the bike up, but stiff springs and no ability to blow off compression damping will likely amplify the pot hole impacts over the stock suspension. The highspeed damping will allow you to adjust high speed damping so you can blow off compression damping and only have the spring to contend with. The ride will feel much smoother if you have this function in your shock.

Not exactly true, but sort of. As they describe it in most publications you would believe that it blows off or dumps compression under high speed compression events.

With the primary valve stack on the main piston, those shims also must unload. If the High Speed Compression adjuster simply dropped out the pressure, there would be cavitation on the sealhead side of the damper. HSC adjusters regulate effective flow from the dampers main chamber into the reservoir. If there were no flow or room for the oil to be displaced the damper rod would be locked and not move. The HSC controls the ability to shuttle fluid.

The HSC adjuster is an indirect adjuster and meters a fraction of the fluid controlled by the main piston. There must be a balance between the main shim stack and the HSC shim stack and the HSC spring. Port sizes and shapes also play into all of this.

On the dirt bikes, we more often use the HSC adjuster to control rear squat as opposed to yielding to HSC events.

Personally, if the company is any good at building shim stacks and has a valid data base, for a road vehicle, a HSC is really not needed. For that matter, a rebound adjuster is not needed either. Once rebound forces are sorted out, since they are generated by spring force only, again, a quality shock build will have the shim stacks pretty much spot on for a road vehicle.

The Spyder is a pretty low performance vehicle, the wheel travel is only a few inches, almost to the point of a step above a rigid framed go kart. The cornering forces are basically flat, unlike a motorcycle where a large portion of leaned cornering forces influence the suspension compression and rebound.

Truthfully, unless you are just spending money, Elka should be able to build a shimstack that works well out of the box. By comparison, I installed Fox Shox on the front of our RTS. If they needed a valving change I would go in and reshim the stacks. Fox got the valving good for average sized riders right out of the box. We have no clickers at all for compression, HSC or rebound and honestly I do not see the need.

FWIW, I have been tuning race bike suspension since the mid 70's, I can be very picky about setup, if there is a limiting factor to the Fox Shox, it is the flexy frame and swingarm of the Spyder and the soft sidewalls of the Kenda tires.

 

[Samson]

I have added Penske shocks to my 4 last bikes. What an incredible shock. I am not sure if these are made for the Spyder but might be worth looking to.

 

[PMK]

Most BMW bikes use Ohlins that's what I had on my RT 1100 loved them..
Wilbers are also quality shocks.
Martin on this board from Europe went with Wilbers and loves his. Do a search.
Good luck .

I have not spoken to Ohlins recently. My last discussion with them indicated they knew the Spyder was a possible market, but until Sweden decides to build Spyder shocks, none will be built unless custom built by an Ohlins dealer outside of Ohlins factory. I did speak with an Ohlins dealer about doing this. While it may be possible to mix and match shock bodies, eyelets, piston style, and so forth, it is kind of a pig in a poke to build and there is no good baseline of what compression forces need to be dealt with. In simple terms, I would be doing the development work for the shim stacks.

Too much work without a good baseline to build from. Probably 6 teardowns and shim changes to get it good. I decided against Ohlins until they are offered as an aftermarket bolt on product.

Ohlins has the ability to build the best Spyder shocks. Just not sure they see the market and the investment of time spent on the 4 post shock dyno may not be viable.

Wilburs are nice stuff, not common in the USA. I have seen them at shows and was impressed. As they say though, the proof is in the ride.

 

[PMK]

I have added Penske shocks to my 4 last bikes. What an incredible shock. I am not sure if these are made for the Spyder but might be worth looking to.

Penske shocks are very nice. I have been inside them. Quality item with a lot of capability if you know how to dial them in.

 

[PMK]

I get the impression that Madmartigan might not have been using the two up shock due to his "cheap rear shock" comment, Norm. But I may be wrong, of course What Spyder are you running, Mad?

Pete

Ironic the remark about cheap rear shock. Actually, the oem shocks are not that bad by design, sadly, whoever came up with the specs for the spring rate and internal damping missed the mark based on how they had to offer a second version of the shock.

At a guess, since the rear end of the Spyder has very little reaction while cornering, BRP probably based the oem shock settings and spring rate settings on where the average sized rider would be sprung correctly, and the softer settings were incorporated for straight line acceleration. A heavier rider, the idea of two riders, or rough terrain were a secondary concern.

I was a bit surprised to see the oem Sachs shocks appear to have a shot peened spring, and are gas charged. I was expecting a simple emulsion shock with plain wire springs.

 

[I-Day]

Ron's sway bar

I have installed Ron's sway/stabiliser bar on the 2016 F3-L and have noticed a big improvement. I am wondering if installing the Elka stage 4 shocks (or something similar) would improve the handling/stability even more. Our country back roads are pretty potholed, and I put a fair load on the shocks. I am not interested in taking corners at blistering speeds, but simply looking at cornering etc stability. I would be very interested in getting opinions from those who "know".:thumbup:

Can you give some info on Ron sway bar! Price and where to get info! The one from Lamonstor seams very expensive! Thanks

 

[TicketBait]

I have installed Ron's sway/stabiliser bar on the 2016 F3-L and have noticed a big improvement. I am wondering if installing the Elka stage 4 shocks (or something similar) would improve the handling/stability even more. Our country back roads are pretty potholed, and I put a fair load on the shocks. I am not interested in taking corners at blistering speeds, but simply looking at cornering etc stability. I would be very interested in getting opinions from those who "know".:thumbup:

Here is a link to a thread from several years ago. This spyderlover "clueless" went to a lot of investigative trouble to find the best shock for the $$ You can get the springs in what ever color you want. Pictures in link. Also read the thread below the picture where he posts all the advantages of their shock.
Unlike the Elkas, this shock does not raise your bike thus putting your headlights in cage drivers eyes.

This company Works Performance Shocks made shocks for the Disneyland monorail, the Space Shuttle, need I say more!

"click:http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...Installed!&highlight=works+performance+shocks


I have had mine on for over 5 years, and they still cut through the canyons like butter.

One last thing if you do end up with the Elkas shocks get the protector

• Protection of the shock's shaft from damage caused by flyings debris such as roost, rocks, sand and more that could lead to premature wear and/or oil leaks

since the elka shocks are installed upside down, Not like the OEM or Works shocks they need a protector.

Please let us know what you end up with.:thumbup:

 

[PMK]

Here is a link to a thread from several years ago. This spyderlover "clueless" went to a lot of investigative trouble to find the best shock for the $$ You can get the springs in what ever color you want. Pictures in link. Also read the thread below the picture where he posts all the advantages of their shock.
Unlike the Elkas, this shock does not raise your bike thus putting your headlights in cage drivers eyes.

This company Works Performance Shocks made shocks for the Disneyland monorail, the Space Shuttle, need I say more!

"click:http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...Installed!&highlight=works+performance+shocks


I have had mine on for over 5 years, and they still cut through the canyons like butter.

One last thing if you do end up with the Elkas shocks get the protector

• Protection of the shock's shaft from damage caused by flyings debris such as roost, rocks, sand and more that could lead to premature wear and/or oil leaks

since the elka shocks are installed upside down, Not like the OEM or Works shocks they need a protector.

Please let us know what you end up with.:thumbup:

Works Performance builds a good shock. When I was researching shocks for our 2014 RTS, I thought I learned they do not offer them for the newer Spyders. No doubt a call should be placed to find out.

Learning about Gil Vailancourt passing away last summer, I don't know what path Works Performance is following. Gil was the founder of Works Performance back in the mid 70's.

As for the orientation of the shocks, I agree, on these machines a shaft up position may be an advantage. The normal contention is less unsprung weight for better performance, but the Spyder is not heavily focused on performance suspension and the travel is short making it less of a concern. FWIW, Fox Shox are mounted shafts up / bodies down.

 

[Peteoz]

Works Performance builds a good shock. When I was researching shocks for our 2014 RTS, I thought I learned they do not offer them for the newer Spyders. No doubt a call should be placed to find out.

Learning about Gil Vailancourt passing away last summer, I don't know what path Works Performance is following. Gil was the founder of Works Performance back in the mid 70's.

As for the orientation of the shocks, I agree, on these machines a shaft up position may be an advantage. The normal contention is less unsprung weight for better performance, but the Spyder is not heavily focused on performance suspension and the travel is short making it less of a concern. FWIW, Fox Shox are mounted shafts up / bodies down.

Thanks PMK....yeah, you can't buy Works shocks for later Spyder versions out here (or perhaps anywhere)..... we appear to be limited to Elkas or Wilbers. Based on what I'll have seen from Martins video, I'll try Wilbers first.

Pete

 

[Peteoz]

Can you give some info on Ron sway bar! Price and where to get info! The one from Lamonstor seams very expensive! Thanks

I can't imagine Lamont is adding much of a margin to the Ron bar, I-day......it's not the way he works......but.....go to the Home page and look at the list of sponsors. BAJARON is about the fourth one down. Give him a call direct.

Pete

 

[Peteoz]

As for the orientation of the shocks, I agree, on these machines a shaft up position may be an advantage. The normal contention is less unsprung weight for better performance, but the Spyder is not heavily focused on performance suspension and the travel is short making it less of a concern. FWIW, Fox Shox are mounted shafts up / bodies down.

I'm confused TicketBait and PMK. (Not hard). Attached is an eBay listing with pics of the Elka Stage 4 Spyder F3 shocks. They do not look "shaft up" to me. Am I missing something? Or have they changed design for the the new F3.
Pete
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elka-Stage-...-CAN-AM-Spyder-F3-F3-S-F3S-2015-/381519178379

 

[papanorm]

Pete,
Reminds me of a song the Temptaions did-"Ball of Confusion"
The shocks are installed upside down, hence shaft up.:hun::hun::hun:

 

[PMK]

I'm confused TicketBait and PMK. (Not hard). Attached is an eBay listing with pics of the Elka Stage 4 Spyder F3 shocks. They do not look "shaft up" to me. Am I missing something? Or have they changed design for the the new F3.
Pete
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elka-Stage-...-CAN-AM-Spyder-F3-F3-S-F3S-2015-/381519178379

Elkas are mounted shaft down. On the front shock installation, shaft down exposes the shaft to flying debris and more which can destroy the shafts over time. This was the reason someone else mentioned the need to run the guards.

On a rear shock installation, if debris from the rotating tire can be thrown at the shock shaft, the same results may happen over time.

No confusion, simply a common sense installation mounting position.

 

[jcthorne]

Elkas are mounted shaft down. On the front shock installation, shaft down exposes the shaft to flying debris and more which can destroy the shafts over time. This was the reason someone else mentioned the need to run the guards.

On a rear shock installation, if debris from the rotating tire can be thrown at the shock shaft, the same results may happen over time.

No confusion, simply a common sense installation mounting position.

Not
on the F3. Elkas mount Shaft Up on the F3, spring above the adjuster.

 

[PMK]

Not
on the F3. Elkas mount Shaft Up on the F3, spring above the adjuster.

View attachment 146188

Yes, my bad as this is a titled F3 topic. Other Spyder models may still have the shafts down unless Elka has changed that. These are the protectors they sell or sold to save the shock shafts.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...-protectors&highlight=elka+shock+installation

 

[PMK]

Not
on the F3. Elkas mount Shaft Up on the F3, spring above the adjuster.

View attachment 146188

Pretty certain the RT series still remains shaft down. Seems Elka followed the Fox Shox guys and went shafts up on the F3 stuff.

I was always curious why a Canadian company like BRP did not utilize another Canadian company like Elka when selecting the high performance shocks for the Spyder accessories. Seemed odd they went to Fox, even odd they went to Fox in California to supply some of the OEM shocks on several Spyder models.

This shows photos of a set of 2014 and later RT series shocks for sale, still shaft down based on the decals.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=142799&d=1485189657

 

[jcthorne]

Yep, RT and ST still install shaft down.

 

[TicketBait]

Works Performance builds a good shock. When I was researching shocks for our 2014 RTS, I thought I learned they do not offer them for the newer Spyders. No doubt a call should be placed to find out.

Learning about Gil Vailancourt passing away last summer, I don't know what path Works Performance is following. Gil was the founder of Works Performance back in the mid 70's.

As for the orientation of the shocks, I agree, on these machines a shaft up position may be an advantage. The normal contention is less unsprung weight for better performance, but the Spyder is not heavily focused on performance suspension and the travel is short making it less of a concern. FWIW, Fox Shox are mounted shafts up / bodies down.

Was given a tour of their facility in Canoga Park CA. about
20 miles from where I am, and was shown all the different
bins for the parts that go into making a shock, which explained
why it took so long to put together. If they were out of a
particular part. Believe they machined all of there parts.
Believe I was introduced to Gil, but wasn't aware until now
of how famous he was in the AMA. Actually says he passed
in May 2015 from a heart attack. sad

Thanks PMK....yeah, you can't buy Works shocks for later Spyder versions out here (or perhaps anywhere)..... we appear to be limited to Elkas or Wilbers. Based on what I'll have seen from Martins video, I'll try Wilbers first.

Pete

oops never mind, won't promote what they no longer make :banghead:

I'm confused TicketBait and PMK. (Not hard). Attached is an eBay listing with pics of the Elka Stage 4 Spyder F3 shocks. They do not look "shaft up" to me. Am I missing something? Or have they changed design for the the new F3.
Pete
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elka-Stage-...-CAN-AM-Spyder-F3-F3-S-F3S-2015-/381519178379

Did not pay attention that this was F3 topic, just assumed
all the shocks for Rt & F3 were the same. Sorry for the confusion.
Will step aside.