robmorg
New member
EXACTLY! When I saw that on my 2013 RT, and also noted how close the cat was to the fuel tank, I made the immediate decision to wrap my headers and remove the cat.
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RT Twin heat problems
- Thread starter wanderingman
- Start date
jcthorne
Well-known member
Why in the world would you assume this. A returnless system is as responsive as the electronics modulating it. Can be FAR quicker responding to flow and pressure changes than a diaphram and spring arrangement return regulator. The electronics can also directly control to different requested set points at different operating conditions. There is NO reason a returnless system would run richer or leaner at any given operating point. It could be programmed either way or not at all.
ALL modern cars use a returnless fuel system with the ECM directly controlling fuel pressure.
There can be poorly performing electronic fuel pressure control systems but there can also be poorly performing pressure regulator systems. Does not mean the newer version CANT perform better. In most cases they do and with far more flexibility than single pressure mechanical control systems.
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jcthorne
Well-known member
I have been engineering, installing and operating electronic pressure control systems for many years. i KNOW pressure control. I also have tuned and trouble shot many a vehicle fuel problems.
I would not proclaim that EVERY electronic pressure control fuel system is better than an analog one but will say that most in production today are. They also allow a wider range of control, effectively increasing the range of operation of port fuel injectors.
Back to Spyders, the returnless fuel system used on the Spyders, both V-twin and 1330 works just fine for its application and does not in and of itself result in rich fuel mixtures at idle nor lean mixtures at WOT.
Return style fuel systems have gone the way of carburetors, manual chokes and buggy whips. Its simply outdated mechanical pressure control.
i do not expect you to agree with me. Lets just agree to disagree on this point and move on.
robmorg
New member
...Then Why the Improved Economy?
Hmmm, well then that brings the discussion back to my original question. Still don't know what they did in last summer's heat recall that improved my economy by 25% (20 to 25 mpg), unless they leaned the heck out of it close to WOT with the ECM. As I explained in post #17 above, it was NOT just eliminating the fuel boil-off, because I had eliminated that problem the previous year by removing the cat, wrapping both headers and the cat bypass pipe, and shielding the fuel tank with heat reflective tape. Do you have any different ideas about what may have improved the economy that much, immediately after the recall?
JC,
Hmmm, well then that brings the discussion back to my original question. Still don't know what they did in last summer's heat recall that improved my economy by 25% (20 to 25 mpg), unless they leaned the heck out of it close to WOT with the ECM. As I explained in post #17 above, it was NOT just eliminating the fuel boil-off, because I had eliminated that problem the previous year by removing the cat, wrapping both headers and the cat bypass pipe, and shielding the fuel tank with heat reflective tape. Do you have any different ideas about what may have improved the economy that much, immediately after the recall?
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Really don't need your resume, and care even less. I know your type and deal with them everyday. You think you know the concept but don't deal with the tuning. Whatever.... Agree...disagree...again, I don't care. Engineer away! Choo-choo!
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jcthorne
Well-known member
Have a great weekend. My client will be happy to know that if the control loops I have put in service for them ever fail, I can provide a reference for someone else that proclaims to have more knowledge on the internet.
I wasn't the one throwing my resume out there homie....I'm no engineer. My kid is, and it's pretty funny to see a master of EVERYTHING in action...ha-ha.
But if you really do want to have an intelligent conversation on real FI performance tuning, PM me.
Back to your control loops.
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But if you really do want to have an intelligent conversation on real FI performance tuning, PM me.
Back to your control loops.
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Indiana Ken
New member
Question on Cat
I have a 2012 RT that I just bought. Have noticed heat, not bad, but it hasn't been real hot yet. Having the pipe so close to the gas tank, it makes sence to have it wrapped. I reading, I see comments that the CAT should be removed and the headers wrapped. I am a novice about this stuff. Is this something the dealer would do, or I am willing to tackle, I have a life and I can undue bolts. Do you have to fabricate a new pipe bypass, or do you buy it pre made?
I have a 2012 RT that I just bought. Have noticed heat, not bad, but it hasn't been real hot yet. Having the pipe so close to the gas tank, it makes sence to have it wrapped. I reading, I see comments that the CAT should be removed and the headers wrapped. I am a novice about this stuff. Is this something the dealer would do, or I am willing to tackle, I have a life and I can undue bolts. Do you have to fabricate a new pipe bypass, or do you buy it pre made?
jcthorne
Well-known member
Pitbull will sell you a bypass that is all stainless steel and very nicely made. Some dealers will do this kind of work and some will not.
Snowbelt Spyder
Well-known member
Hi Ken. I tackled heat management from day 1. First came the upper block off plate from Spyderpops as well as highway pegs to get my right leg out of the way of the radiator exhaust. Then came wrapping that header pipe. Use the wrap of your choice. Then came removing the Cat.
http://www.pitbullpowersportsinc.co...l.htm?productId=-546336&catalogId=-3774&fpg=1
Then came the adjustable side vents. Then came JT's air filer. The air filter made the biggest difference and I finally really fell in love with this machine then. But, after that, I had to get the Power Commander to deal with the lean running issues. After I had already gotten the air filter, BRP came out with the 2013 recall with the scoops that will also fit the 2012. But, I like my adjustable vents and I think the air filter does just as good a job, plus makes maintenance easier. However, a lot of people swear by the scoops as being the best of all. Even if you wrap the pipes and remove the CAT, if you don't get some air flow under the bodywork, the gas will boil on hot days. A dealer would do the scoops for you.
Some dealers are more finicky than others about adding after market stuff, especially if it involves removing emissions components. But, I think if you can take something apart and put it back together again without having parts left over, then you could do these jobs.
So, if I were to summarize after 4 years, I'd say ditch the Cat, wrap the header pipes and go with the scoops. And it's your choice about what you want to do about that right leg.
Looks like me and JC were writing at the same time.
http://www.pitbullpowersportsinc.co...l.htm?productId=-546336&catalogId=-3774&fpg=1
Then came the adjustable side vents. Then came JT's air filer. The air filter made the biggest difference and I finally really fell in love with this machine then. But, after that, I had to get the Power Commander to deal with the lean running issues. After I had already gotten the air filter, BRP came out with the 2013 recall with the scoops that will also fit the 2012. But, I like my adjustable vents and I think the air filter does just as good a job, plus makes maintenance easier. However, a lot of people swear by the scoops as being the best of all. Even if you wrap the pipes and remove the CAT, if you don't get some air flow under the bodywork, the gas will boil on hot days. A dealer would do the scoops for you.
Some dealers are more finicky than others about adding after market stuff, especially if it involves removing emissions components. But, I think if you can take something apart and put it back together again without having parts left over, then you could do these jobs.
So, if I were to summarize after 4 years, I'd say ditch the Cat, wrap the header pipes and go with the scoops. And it's your choice about what you want to do about that right leg.
Looks like me and JC were writing at the same time.
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robmorg
New member
:agree:,
Ken, I agree completely with Doug's summary above. This is what I did. (Although I eventually had the benefit of the entire recall since I have a 2013 RT.) Since the cat sits almost directly beneath the fuel tank, I'd also recommend wrapping the Pitbull cat bypass pipe before it is installed. My dealer, being less "finicky" than some, happily did all the work for me. (There is no requirement, in most states, for a motorcycle to have a catalytic converter.)
I also agree that you have to get more air inside that engine compartment. The air scoops for the 2013 recall will do that nicely. BRP has installed many of those at no charge for owners of pre-2013 RT's who have complained about the heat.
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jcthorne
Well-known member
They do a lot for 14 and newer RTs as well. BRP will not pay for them but they are less than $70 and work very well. The whole center console stays cool and there is no more heat coming up from in front of the seat. Very worthy upgrade for the newer bikes. We have installed several sets for folks here in Houston.
Indiana Ken
New member
Sorry, but another question
First of - Thanks in advance for the great info supplied by other Spyder owners.
In talking about pulling the CAT and maybe adding a new air filter system to my 2012 RT, I was wondering if all these changes will void my BEST extended warranty?
First of - Thanks in advance for the great info supplied by other Spyder owners.
In talking about pulling the CAT and maybe adding a new air filter system to my 2012 RT, I was wondering if all these changes will void my BEST extended warranty?
robmorg
New member
Warranty Not "Voided", but...
BRP will not void your BEST warranty for those mods. However, they can deny coverage for a repair that they consider may have been caused as a result of having done the mods (potentially certain exhaust or engine repairs, etc.). For that reason, if they know you did the mods, they will flag that information in your file at BRP. I know this because my file has been flagged with the information that I removed the cat. I'm not terribly concerned about this, as they have since covered unrelated claims.
BRP will not void your BEST warranty for those mods. However, they can deny coverage for a repair that they consider may have been caused as a result of having done the mods (potentially certain exhaust or engine repairs, etc.). For that reason, if they know you did the mods, they will flag that information in your file at BRP. I know this because my file has been flagged with the information that I removed the cat. I'm not terribly concerned about this, as they have since covered unrelated claims.
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