• There were many reasons for the change of the site software, the biggest was security. The age of the old software also meant no server updates for certain programs. There are many benefits to the new software, one of the biggest is the mobile functionality. Ill fix up some stuff in the coming days, we'll also try to get some of the old addons back or the data imported back into the site like the garage. To create a thread or to reply with a post is basically the same as it was in the prior software. The default style of the site is light colored, but i temporarily added a darker colored style, to change you can find a link at the bottom of the site.

RT TROUBLES......... I HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR

Pete...I was just curious what's wrong with the Spyder and also why the dealer is saying nothing is wrong with it.
Well on my one an only trip the VSC and the DPS went out when i carried it to shop the tec that unloaded it notice that (DPS out and safety thing on starte up not working) they said the buds showed no codes so nothing wrong with bike. now on wet road when I started off at red lite I killed engine.:cus: me off so I started it back up and started off harder than normal. it fished tailed for 50 to 60 feet before I had to shut it down VSC never kicked in a other in rain it hydroplained same thing no VSC to help get it under control.:mad:
 
Well on my one an only trip the VSC and the DPS went out when i carried it to shop the tec that unloaded it notice that (DPS out and safety thing on starte up not working) they said the buds showed no codes so nothing wrong with bike. now on wet road when I started off at red lite I killed engine.:cus: me off so I started it back up and started off harder than normal. it fished tailed for 50 to 60 feet before I had to shut it down VSC never kicked in a other in rain it hydroplained same thing no VSC to help get it under control.:mad:


pete, honestly i feel for ya. Just take it to another dealer who is interested in fixing it. Why put yourself through all the aggravation.:dontknow:
 
Just a thought, If there's a Spyderlover who lives near him, Maybe they can a look /ride his Spyder.
I got a feeling his traction control [vsc??] is working properly it's just he doesn't how its supposed to work, If you can follow what I'm trying to say.:dontknow::dontknow:
 
I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again so others don't end up like poor Pete here.

First, before you approach your dealer with a problem, do all your homework if you can. If you've broken down on the road consider having it towed to your home (or even to your hotel when on the road) rather than directly to a dealer. Don't be in such a hurry, you need time to think. Research the problem you are having and understand it as best as you can. Read your warranty in full. Understand exactly what it says, the law now requires it to be clear and concise to everyone. Your warranty is the only thing that stands between you and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs. Know it well. If you have done anything to possibly void the warranty you will need to take this seriously into consideration before you expect your dealer to help. Have all of your maintenance records up to date especially if you do your own work. Go into your dealer fully prepared. Don't be be naive. Expect to be challenged and have your answer prepared if you are. Know the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act.

If you then have a problem with your Spyder that your dealer cannot or will not resolve write or e-mail (don't call) a clear and concise letter with all the facts and little or no emotions and send it directly to BRP. You won't have to wait long, a service rep will contact you by phone. Have all your facts ready and close by. Then calmly work hand in hand with the customer service representative to resolve the problem. You may need to have a lot of patience and may have to reach a fair compromise, but far more often than not you will receive a resolution that you will be satisfied with.

That's what you should do. Here's what you should never do.

Never loose your temper. Never use foul language. Never become irate. I don't care how hot tempered, angry, or frustrated you are, you need to remain calm, rational, and focused. You need to work with the service rep not fight with them even if they don't do what you want. If you were in their position would you be willing to work with a hot head? You can convey your dissatisfaction without loosing your temper but you have to keep the customer service rep in your corner and willing to help you. They're only human, if you treat them like crap they're not going to want to go out of their way to help you. You'll receive far more help if you gain their sympathy rather than their wrath.

Most of all never threaten legal action directly or indirectly (such as through a public forum) unless you absolutely mean it and have exhausted all other alternatives. Legal action is the equivalent of declaring war. The diplomats bow out and the military (i.e. the lawyers) take over. All communication between the customer and the service reps is shut down and deferred to the legal department. You're done talking. You now need to hope your lawyer is better than their entire legal team. They also know you're probably not willing to pay your lawyer $20K in legal fees, so all they have to do is drag things out. Once you declare war you better be prepared to fight the battle because they sure are. It's a fact of life for all large companies to have an excellent, well prepared, effective legal team.

I can surely sympathize with anyone in need of a company's help for warranty work. I've been there myself all too many times, including with BRP. That's why I know how to handle it. Please consider this advice if you find yourself in such a situation.
 
I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again so others don't end up like poor Pete here.

First, before you approach your dealer with a problem, do all your homework if you can. If you've broken down on the road consider having it towed to your home (or even to your hotel when on the road) rather than directly to a dealer. Don't be in such a hurry, you need time to think. Research the problem you are having and understand it as best as you can. Read your warranty in full. Understand exactly what it says, the law now requires it to be clear and concise to everyone. Your warranty is the only thing that stands between you and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs. Know it well. If you have done anything to possibly void the warranty you will need to take this seriously into consideration before you expect your dealer to help. Have all of your maintenance records up to date especially if you do your own work. Go into your dealer fully prepared. Don't be be naive. Expect to be challenged and have your answer prepared if you are. Know the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act.

If you then have a problem with your Spyder that your dealer cannot or will not resolve write or e-mail (don't call) a clear and concise letter with all the facts and little or no emotions and send it directly to BRP. You won't have to wait long, a service rep will contact you by phone. Have all your facts ready and close by. Then calmly work hand in hand with the customer service representative to resolve the problem. You may need to have a lot of patience and may have to reach a fair compromise, but far more often than not you will receive a resolution that you will be satisfied with.

That's what you should do. Here's what you should never do.

Never loose your temper. Never use foul language. Never become irate. I don't care how hot tempered, angry, or frustrated you are, you need to remain calm, rational, and focused. You need to work with the service rep not fight with them even if they don't do what you want. If you were in their position would you be willing to work with a hot head? You can convey your dissatisfaction without loosing your temper but you have to keep the customer service rep in your corner and willing to help you. They're only human, if you treat them like crap they're not going to want to go out of their way to help you. You'll receive far more help if you gain their sympathy rather than their wrath.

Most of all never threaten legal action directly or indirectly (such as through a public forum) unless you absolutely mean it and have exhausted all other alternatives. Legal action is the equivalent of declaring war. The diplomats bow out and the military (i.e. the lawyers) take over. All communication between the customer and the service reps is shut down and deferred to the legal department. You're done talking. You now need to hope your lawyer is better than their entire legal team. They also know you're probably not willing to pay your lawyer $20K in legal fees, so all they have to do is drag things out. Once you declare war you better be prepared to fight the battle because they sure are. It's a fact of life for all large companies to have an excellent, well prepared, effective legal team.

I can surely sympathize with anyone in need of a company's help for warranty work. I've been there myself all too many times, including with BRP. That's why I know how to handle it. Please consider this advice if you find yourself in such a situation.

:agree:
 
well said!

I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again so others don't end up like poor Pete here.

First, before you approach your dealer with a problem, do all your homework if you can. If you've broken down on the road consider having it towed to your home (or even to your hotel when on the road) rather than directly to a dealer. Don't be in such a hurry, you need time to think. Research the problem you are having and understand it as best as you can. Read your warranty in full. Understand exactly what it says, the law now requires it to be clear and concise to everyone. Your warranty is the only thing that stands between you and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs. Know it well. If you have done anything to possibly void the warranty you will need to take this seriously into consideration before you expect your dealer to help. Have all of your maintenance records up to date especially if you do your own work. Go into your dealer fully prepared. Don't be be naive. Expect to be challenged and have your answer prepared if you are. Know the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act.

If you then have a problem with your Spyder that your dealer cannot or will not resolve write or e-mail (don't call) a clear and concise letter with all the facts and little or no emotions and send it directly to BRP. You won't have to wait long, a service rep will contact you by phone. Have all your facts ready and close by. Then calmly work hand in hand with the customer service representative to resolve the problem. You may need to have a lot of patience and may have to reach a fair compromise, but far more often than not you will receive a resolution that you will be satisfied with.

That's what you should do. Here's what you should never do.

Never loose your temper. Never use foul language. Never become irate. I don't care how hot tempered, angry, or frustrated you are, you need to remain calm, rational, and focused. You need to work with the service rep not fight with them even if they don't do what you want. If you were in their position would you be willing to work with a hot head? You can convey your dissatisfaction without loosing your temper but you have to keep the customer service rep in your corner and willing to help you. They're only human, if you treat them like crap they're not going to want to go out of their way to help you. You'll receive far more help if you gain their sympathy rather than their wrath.

Most of all never threaten legal action directly or indirectly (such as through a public forum) unless you absolutely mean it and have exhausted all other alternatives. Legal action is the equivalent of declaring war. The diplomats bow out and the military (i.e. the lawyers) take over. All communication between the customer and the service reps is shut down and deferred to the legal department. You're done talking. You now need to hope your lawyer is better than their entire legal team. They also know you're probably not willing to pay your lawyer $20K in legal fees, so all they have to do is drag things out. Once you declare war you better be prepared to fight the battle because they sure are. It's a fact of life for all large companies to have an excellent, well prepared, effective legal team.

I can surely sympathize with anyone in need of a company's help for warranty work. I've been there myself all too many times, including with BRP. That's why I know how to handle it. Please consider this advice if you find yourself in such a situation.

i had an issue with searay many moons ago and that was the approach i took. it hurt not being able to ride, but the two months in and out of the water paid off with a new boat once searay admitted the engine boat pairing was grossly underpowered. it might have ended up in a class action suit if they hadn't addressed the owners that had the same problems as me. sometimes it just takes a little time. i feel your frustrations, but it will work out for you in the long run. be calm and yet be concise in your explanations of your problems. you will get someone to listen!!!
 
Ryde Question

Hi, I just have a quick question for you. What year is your RT? I know with my 2010 RT-A, I have gone through (and am still dealing with) "growing pains". There's just no amount of testing and controlled studies that represent ALL potential problems/ issues. Although, thankfully, I have a very good dealer, who has helped every step of the way. Once, when I felt they were taking just a bit too long with a repair, I actually emailed BRP, and explained quite factually what was going on (must keep any emotions out of corresepondence). They, as a big corporation, took the time to answer my concerns, and actually contacted the dealer, repair was completed within 2 days.
Anyway, the point I was trying to express is, any communication with the dealer or BRP must be done in a civil manner. As fellow Spyder ryders have mentioned, keep a log of names, dates, and copies of any communications. Please do not take offense to the following words, I would suggest also having a friend check any letters, emails, etc. for spelling and emotional comments before sending them. They can act as a sounding board, and even a second set of eyes and ears.
Finally, when you do have a good experience with a dealer or service, be sure and let BRP know that too! Believe me, both BRP and any dealer worth their salt know that a good customer experience will go a very long way in generating both new and repeat business. Good Luck, and please keep us informed of whatever happens. We are a big Spyder family!!!!
 
I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again so others don't end up like poor Pete here.

First, before you approach your dealer with a problem, do all your homework if you can. If you've broken down on the road consider having it towed to your home (or even to your hotel when on the road) rather than directly to a dealer. Don't be in such a hurry, you need time to think. Research the problem you are having and understand it as best as you can. Read your warranty in full. Understand exactly what it says, the law now requires it to be clear and concise to everyone. Your warranty is the only thing that stands between you and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs. Know it well. If you have done anything to possibly void the warranty you will need to take this seriously into consideration before you expect your dealer to help. Have all of your maintenance records up to date especially if you do your own work. Go into your dealer fully prepared. Don't be be naive. Expect to be challenged and have your answer prepared if you are. Know the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act.

If you then have a problem with your Spyder that your dealer cannot or will not resolve write or e-mail (don't call) a clear and concise letter with all the facts and little or no emotions and send it directly to BRP. You won't have to wait long, a service rep will contact you by phone. Have all your facts ready and close by. Then calmly work hand in hand with the customer service representative to resolve the problem. You may need to have a lot of patience and may have to reach a fair compromise, but far more often than not you will receive a resolution that you will be satisfied with.

That's what you should do. Here's what you should never do.

Never loose your temper. Never use foul language. Never become irate. I don't care how hot tempered, angry, or frustrated you are, you need to remain calm, rational, and focused. You need to work with the service rep not fight with them even if they don't do what you want. If you were in their position would you be willing to work with a hot head? You can convey your dissatisfaction without loosing your temper but you have to keep the customer service rep in your corner and willing to help you. They're only human, if you treat them like crap they're not going to want to go out of their way to help you. You'll receive far more help if you gain their sympathy rather than their wrath.

Most of all never threaten legal action directly or indirectly (such as through a public forum) unless you absolutely mean it and have exhausted all other alternatives. Legal action is the equivalent of declaring war. The diplomats bow out and the military (i.e. the lawyers) take over. All communication between the customer and the service reps is shut down and deferred to the legal department. You're done talking. You now need to hope your lawyer is better than their entire legal team. They also know you're probably not willing to pay your lawyer $20K in legal fees, so all they have to do is drag things out. Once you declare war you better be prepared to fight the battle because they sure are. It's a fact of life for all large companies to have an excellent, well prepared, effective legal team.

I can surely sympathize with anyone in need of a company's help for warranty work. I've been there myself all too many times, including with BRP. That's why I know how to handle it. Please consider this advice if you find yourself in such a situation.

:agree: X2!! :2thumbs: It could not have been said better! :bowdown: :clap:
 
I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again so others don't end up like poor Pete here.

First, before you approach your dealer with a problem, do all your homework if you can. If you've broken down on the road consider having it towed to your home (or even to your hotel when on the road) rather than directly to a dealer. Don't be in such a hurry, you need time to think. Research the problem you are having and understand it as best as you can. Read your warranty in full. Understand exactly what it says, the law now requires it to be clear and concise to everyone. Your warranty is the only thing that stands between you and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs. Know it well. If you have done anything to possibly void the warranty you will need to take this seriously into consideration before you expect your dealer to help. Have all of your maintenance records up to date especially if you do your own work. Go into your dealer fully prepared. Don't be be naive. Expect to be challenged and have your answer prepared if you are. Know the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act.

If you then have a problem with your Spyder that your dealer cannot or will not resolve write or e-mail (don't call) a clear and concise letter with all the facts and little or no emotions and send it directly to BRP. You won't have to wait long, a service rep will contact you by phone. Have all your facts ready and close by. Then calmly work hand in hand with the customer service representative to resolve the problem. You may need to have a lot of patience and may have to reach a fair compromise, but far more often than not you will receive a resolution that you will be satisfied with.

That's what you should do. Here's what you should never do.

Never loose your temper. Never use foul language. Never become irate. I don't care how hot tempered, angry, or frustrated you are, you need to remain calm, rational, and focused. You need to work with the service rep not fight with them even if they don't do what you want. If you were in their position would you be willing to work with a hot head? You can convey your dissatisfaction without loosing your temper but you have to keep the customer service rep in your corner and willing to help you. They're only human, if you treat them like crap they're not going to want to go out of their way to help you. You'll receive far more help if you gain their sympathy rather than their wrath.

Most of all never threaten legal action directly or indirectly (such as through a public forum) unless you absolutely mean it and have exhausted all other alternatives. Legal action is the equivalent of declaring war. The diplomats bow out and the military (i.e. the lawyers) take over. All communication between the customer and the service reps is shut down and deferred to the legal department. You're done talking. You now need to hope your lawyer is better than their entire legal team. They also know you're probably not willing to pay your lawyer $20K in legal fees, so all they have to do is drag things out. Once you declare war you better be prepared to fight the battle because they sure are. It's a fact of life for all large companies to have an excellent, well prepared, effective legal team.

I can surely sympathize with anyone in need of a company's help for warranty work. I've been there myself all too many times, including with BRP. That's why I know how to handle it. Please consider this advice if you find yourself in such a situation.


:agree: During my adventure waiting for my spyder to arrive, I did explain to the dealer I was frustrated with the situation, but didn't lose my temper, or get verbally abusive... That doesn't accomplish anything.
I recall a trip to Chicago years ago - I was waiting to check in at the CHI airport to fly back to Charlotte when the board for my flight was suddenly changed to "cancelled" :shocked: It just so happens the guy in front of me was also on that flight... He gets up there, and starts tossing F-Bombs, and trying to threaten. The girl behind the counter said "I can reroute you through.. I think it was DENVER!, and you will arrive at XXX " which was about 6 hours later than our original time. He took off in a huff to try another airline. I got up there, showed my ticket, and she just looked at me helplessly... I said "no problem... I'll call ahead. just get me in as quick as you can please" I was on a plane in 15 minutes, and arrived 30 minutes later than my original schedule!!:yes:

In those situations, take a deep breath, count to 10, then speak calmly. After you are fixed, there's always time to critique your experience, and I'm sure BRP will take notice...
 
I have stayed out of this thread to see how it would develop.

First, sorry to hear of your problems with the :spyder2: and the problems that you say the dealer has caused for you.

All of the advice given so far has been right on the money. I am not a lawsuit threatening person so I disagree with that at this moment in time. I really don't think you should be ready to sue BRP or anyone at this time.

One must work with the dealer and BRP sometimes to get the issues solved. This also takes time because you are dealing with a big company. I would give them a chance since you mention that you have talked with BRP customer service.

I understand your frustration, and it comes across in your postings. I would not recommend making statements like the dealer should ship your :spyder2: to another dealer for repairs because its to far for you to go. That kind of stuff just is not going to happen. Be realistic in your demands.

There have been a couple previous unhappy persons in the last couple years that had a "my way or the highway" attitude on their problems. Near as I know, one no longer owns a :spyder2: and the other only comes on when there is a complaint or a BRP bashing to be made. Bottom line--work with the people you need help from and give them a chance to fix it.
 
Just a thought, If there's a Spyderlover who lives near him, Maybe they can a look /ride his Spyder.
I got a feeling his traction control [vsc??] is working properly it's just he doesn't how its supposed to work, If you can follow what I'm trying to say.:dontknow::dontknow:

Well sorry to say but I do know how it's suppose to work:) and it's not working nojoke I was told to come and get it :clap: that there was nothing wrong with it:hun: but when I asked for something in writeing stating that they told me not to come and get it just yet:banghead: they need to check some more :dontknow::lecturef_smilie:
 
I have stayed out of this thread to see how it would develop.

First, sorry to hear of your problems with the :spyder2: and the problems that you say the dealer has caused for you.

All of the advice given so far has been right on the money. I am not a lawsuit threatening person so I disagree with that at this moment in time. I really don't think you should be ready to sue BRP or anyone at this time.

One must work with the dealer and BRP sometimes to get the issues solved. This also takes time because you are dealing with a big company. I would give them a chance since you mention that you have talked with BRP customer service.

I understand your frustration, and it comes across in your postings. I would not recommend making statements like the dealer should ship your :spyder2: to another dealer for repairs because its to far for you to go. That kind of stuff just is not going to happen. Be realistic in your demands.

There have been a couple previous unhappy persons in the last couple years that had a "my way or the highway" attitude on their problems. Near as I know, one no longer owns a :spyder2: and the other only comes on when there is a complaint or a BRP bashing to be made. Bottom line--work with the people you need help from and give them a chance to fix it.
thanks for the advice sorry if I come across as a mad idiot but this has been going on sence march how much time is enough.
 
I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again so others don't end up like poor Pete here.

First, before you approach your dealer with a problem, do all your homework if you can. If you've broken down on the road consider having it towed to your home (or even to your hotel when on the road) rather than directly to a dealer. Don't be in such a hurry, you need time to think. Research the problem you are having and understand it as best as you can. Read your warranty in full. Understand exactly what it says, the law now requires it to be clear and concise to everyone. Your warranty is the only thing that stands between you and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs. Know it well. If you have done anything to possibly void the warranty you will need to take this seriously into consideration before you expect your dealer to help. Have all of your maintenance records up to date especially if you do your own work. Go into your dealer fully prepared. Don't be be naive. Expect to be challenged and have your answer prepared if you are. Know the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act.

If you then have a problem with your Spyder that your dealer cannot or will not resolve write or e-mail (don't call) a clear and concise letter with all the facts and little or no emotions and send it directly to BRP. You won't have to wait long, a service rep will contact you by phone. Have all your facts ready and close by. Then calmly work hand in hand with the customer service representative to resolve the problem. You may need to have a lot of patience and may have to reach a fair compromise, but far more often than not you will receive a resolution that you will be satisfied with.

That's what you should do. Here's what you should never do.

Never loose your temper. Never use foul language. Never become irate. I don't care how hot tempered, angry, or frustrated you are, you need to remain calm, rational, and focused. You need to work with the service rep not fight with them even if they don't do what you want. If you were in their position would you be willing to work with a hot head? You can convey your dissatisfaction without loosing your temper but you have to keep the customer service rep in your corner and willing to help you. They're only human, if you treat them like crap they're not going to want to go out of their way to help you. You'll receive far more help if you gain their sympathy rather than their wrath.

Most of all never threaten legal action directly or indirectly (such as through a public forum) unless you absolutely mean it and have exhausted all other alternatives. Legal action is the equivalent of declaring war. The diplomats bow out and the military (i.e. the lawyers) take over. All communication between the customer and the service reps is shut down and deferred to the legal department. You're done talking. You now need to hope your lawyer is better than their entire legal team. They also know you're probably not willing to pay your lawyer $20K in legal fees, so all they have to do is drag things out. Once you declare war you better be prepared to fight the battle because they sure are. It's a fact of life for all large companies to have an excellent, well prepared, effective legal team.

I can surely sympathize with anyone in need of a company's help for warranty work. I've been there myself all too many times, including with BRP. That's why I know how to handle it. Please consider this advice if you find yourself in such a situation.

REALY I have said a hundred times(give or take 50) I did not lose my temper nore did I use foul langeage but I almost have on here because people keep saying I did :banghead: I DID NOT USE FOUL WORDS I DID NOT LOSE MY TEMPER YET:mad:
 
Your state lemon law covers motorcycles and it seems to me you have a case. You do need repair order evidence showing repeated service visits to resolve the same issue, and that 3 tries have not fixed it. Why don't you go ahead and begin proceedings? My experience is that the manufacturer will go the extra mile to avoid taking the vehicle back.
best of luck to you. It is not a happy situation for anyone but you, the consumer, shouldn't have to take a big loss.
 
REALY I have said a hundred times(give or take 50) I did not lose my temper nore did I use foul langeage but I almost have on here because people keep saying I did :banghead: I DID NOT USE FOUL WORDS I DID NOT LOSE MY TEMPER YET:mad:
:lecturef_smilie: Not sure if this was asked yet but did you use foul language and lose your temper?:joke:


I hope it gets fixed quickly, but man you got to watch that temper, and I'm sending some soap so you can wash out that dirty dirty mouth.:roflblack:



Disclaimer:
The above message was intended as a joke and should not be taken seriously, except for the hope part. This message may also have been fueled by my partaking of the sacramental whiskey earlier today.
 
So, Pete, do you have an update?

What's wrong with your spyder and when do you think it might get fixed ?
Your description of the VSS wasn't clear to me. Has your dealer explained WHY they think there is nothing wrong, or have they merely stated that there were no codes.
I don't think the VSS will stop hydroplaning in the rain. I believe it just reacts to the hydroplaning.
Also, I believe that the nanny allows for burnouts. I don't think there is much difference between a dry burnout and a wet burnout.

This thread has been more about reactions to the problem, rather than the problem itself.
The VSS may, in fact, be working correctly.

Of course, I could be wrong, and my free advice comes with a 100% money back guarantee.
 
Hey Pete,

Interesting saga so far. Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

You might need to do some research into what the stability system and traction control do and don't do. It's not like a car.

Watch some youtube videos of spyder burnouts. Is this how yours behaved? It should and will spin the rear tire, dry or wet, for a very long distance so long as you hold the handlebars straight. If the back end starts to come around on you the VSS will react and try to stop you from spinning and/or flipping it. If you hammered the throttle and it wiggled a little and didn't spin or flip then it was probably working. It's kinda subtle when doing this, so you don't always notice it reacting.

If you go around a low speed tight corner and give it too much gas that would cause the back end to break free or lift the inside wheel, you'll clearly notice the engine stuttering and some mild deceleration. That's also the VSS/TC kicking in. Not nearly as subtle. This is the kind of correction most people notice.

Hopefully the dealer and/or BRP can give you a satisfactory explanation as to what to expect in these situations, and then compare YOUR experience to this and see what the problem might be.

Or do the digging and figure it out without their help. You'll probably be more happy fully understanding it in the long run anyhow.

Good Luck Pete.
 
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