Red Dust, Sprocket issues

[PMK]

So with tat being said should I go ahead and lube it, and are we talking about putting the lube in where the pulley attaches to the drive

Absolutely your call whether to remove, lube and reinstall.

Yes, the pulley is removed. Spline in pulley and engine countershaft get cleaned and dried. Lubricate splines with moly paste and reassembly. Torque to specs.

 

[PinkRosePetal]

Splines...do they carry the load or not? My answer is yes, they are truly drive splines. If there were no true mechanical interface of the shaft to the pulley I would expect the surface area of the pulleys inboard and outboard mating surfaces could not provide enough “grip” to prevent the pulley from slipping on the shaft.

I agree with you and that's where the problem lies. The surface area of cantact with the shaft face and bolt tightening pressure have not been enough to prevent movement of the sprocket relative to the shaft. Hence the fretting and water ingress problem.
The most recent sprockets have increased contact area of the rear face by removal of the slight counterbore that previously existed. The bolt tightening torque has also been increased. Only time will tell if this proves sufficient to render the sprocket problem a non-issue. Let's hope so.
In my case I grease the bolt threads and tighten the bolt to 115lb/ft and I've had no further problem. 7k miles so fingers crossed.

The Spyder pulley sees loads in both rotating directions, this is truly not the cause of concern. Drive splines are under great pressure when loaded.

There is fitting clearance between the splines and the shaft, for the splines to be loaded in both forward and reverse, by definition the sprocket would need to be able to turn suficently to take up that clearance. This is exactly the situation that needs to be avoided! It's that very movement that causes the spline, sprocket and shaft end wear.

Imho the Spyder is kinda schizophrenic, a mixture of excellent design and engineering and seriously poor design and engineering.

 

[bmccaffrey]

So if you are tighten to 115 ft lbs how u holding the sprocket from not turning??

 

[PinkRosePetal]

So if you are tighten to 115 ft lbs how u holding the sprocket from not turning??

.....

 

[trikermutha]

I am sorry but I don't get putting a moly paste or lubicant is going to prevent the pulley from getting the sPlines not to wallow out like that.

 

[jcthorne]

I am sorry but I don't get putting a moly paste or lubicant is going to prevent the pulley from getting the sPlines not to wallow out like that.

The splines on the sprocket are going to move relative to the splines on the shaft no matter what you do. This is not a press fit or tapered spline. Since the splines are going to move, a moly paste between them is used to reduce the wear vs fitting the splines dry.

 

[Rattlebars]

EP or Extreme Pressure grease needs to be applied. Moly 60 works. Not to be sloppy upon application. Just enough to do is good.

 

[bmccaffrey]

No one has answered my question on holding sprocket when you torque it??

 

[Rattlebars]

No one has answered my question on holding sprocket when you torque it??

See this post: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...ocket-issues&p=1532622&viewfull=1#post1532622

 

[PMK]

The splines on the sprocket are going to move relative to the splines on the shaft no matter what you do. This is not a press fit or tapered spline. Since the splines are going to move, a moly paste between them is used to reduce the wear vs fitting the splines dry.

Exactly, the pulley is a slip fit, not interference fit or tapered. The pulley will move regardless of bolt torque. The splines are under a high load with minimal microscopic movement. Perfect conditions for fretting corrosion to occur. No water needed with fretting corrosion, simply high pressures, micro movements and oxygen.

There is absolutely no design flaw by requiring lubricated splines and routine maintenance of the spline lubricant.

 

[PMK]

No one has answered my question on holding sprocket when you torque it??

In a previous post, a photo shows how one person fabricated a long pin spanner to hold the pulley from rotating while loosening or tightening the retaining bolt.

The required torque is actually not that much, and far less than the drive belt is rated for. Myself, I allow the drive belt to prevent movement of the countershaft while loosening or tightening the pulley retention bolt. Set the parking brake to prevent rolling the machine while accomplishing the task.

If you are planning to increase the torque on the retaining bolt, realize, you must back the bolt off. Determine rundown torque, then in one smooth non stopping motion torque to the desired torque. Simply trying to increase torque on an already tightened fastener is grossly inaccurate.

 

[RICZ]

I am sorry but I don't get putting a moly paste or lubicant is going to prevent the pulley from getting the sPlines not to wallow out like that.

Then, what are your thoughts about reducing the chances of a pulley failure? Inquiring minds want to know. :dontknow:

 

[ulflyer]

Still seems curious to me that, seemingly, the F3's are far more prone to this problem. I used to own a '14 RT and read every thread on this forum and don't recall it happening to them.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Still seems curious to me that, seemingly, the F3's are far more prone to this problem. I used to own a '14 RT and read every thread on this forum and don't recall it happening to them.

Longer belt?? :dontknow:

 

[PMK]

Longer belt?? :dontknow:

The possibility of longer belt seems viable, but is the belt longer because the countershaft to axle length differs, or because the pulley tooth count is different.

Seems the real underlying question though is, those of us that accomplished removal, inspection, and installation without going to the dealer AND have used moly lube, not grease, or the Loctite method, under that situation, how many have failed.

 

[TerrySpyder]

I'm with PMK on this. There is many front sprocket failures, the dealers know about the issue and BRP also knows about the issue. Here in the UK BRP does not challenge a claim for a replacement sprocket the issue is so prevalent. However, your 2019 will be fitted with a modified sprocket and it should also be tightened to the revised higher torque. With a bit of luck you will be OK. But, it's no use just looking to see whether it's OK occasionally because if it fails, by the time you find the red dust the damage is done and you'll need a new sprocket, plus when the sprocket fails it also frets the end of the splined drive shaft and the replacement sprocket will never seat quite as well as it originally did. If you can do the work yourself it's a straightforward task, doesn't take long and will give you peace of mind for the future.

PMK has his favourite Moly grease but you can buy constant velocity joint grease in your local auto store. It's high spec moly grease and will be very satisfactory.

For info, the splines should not be carrying the driving force on the sprocket, they are locators for the sprocket and a failsafe should an issue develop. The driving force is transmitted via the frictional grip of the driving shaft end and the sprocket end drive face. The tightening torque of the bolt applies pressure to the sprocket to generate this friction. The latest sprockets have an increased area drive face and the tightening torque of the bolt is also increased to provide more friction than the previous Spyders had. We are recommending the moly grease as a saviour should there be any movement of the sprocket on the splines.

It's your call as to whether you trust BRP to have got it right on your machine. If the dust does appear, I bet you'll regret not having prevented the issue.

Would it be a good idea then, if you're not having a front sprocket failure, to replace it anyway? I have a 2017 F3-S.

 

[billybovine]

The current part number for the belt 705501304 for standard rear pulley. Started being used in 2014 until current. For all models including RT, RS, ST and F3. The previous several part numbers of belts for 2008 until 2013 are the same length as well. So the only longer belts are on the F3 with the larger rear pulley. So I will guess that belt length has nothing to do with it.

 

[PinkRosePetal]

Would it be a good idea then, if you're not having a front sprocket failure, to replace it anyway? I have a 2017 F3-S.

Personally I would. The 2017 bikes I've seen have the older sprocket with the recess. These are UK bikes and very likely actually made in 2016 though 2017 specification.

I fitted a new belt and sprockets to a 2017 last week and it had the recessed sprocket. I pulled the new bolt to 115lbs/ft. Iirc, the 'new' recommended torque is 111lbs/ft. Given that most torque wrenches are not particularly accurate I rounded it up but I also lubed the new bolt.

Whether you choose to do it is your call really because it'll cost you money.

The new front sprocket is part number: 705502134
The bolt is part no: 705502292
The belt is still the same, part no: 705501304

 

[PinkRosePetal]

Oops, rereading the above post I didn't make it clear...The 2017 bike on which I replaced the belt and sprocket last week had the recessed sprocket as original fitment but it was replaced with the recent type sprocket which is machined flat on the shaft contact surface.

 

[bmccaffrey]

Replace with shaft drive!!