PROPANE STICKER SHOCK

[r1100rider]

I heated with fuel oil in MN and propane in WI. I can surely feel the crunch you folks get when the bills come due. I too, am appalled by the fact that the speculators come in and drive the prices. It has been a while since we have mentioned this subject--but it is still out there.


RE: Natural gas. I agree, it seems to be the best way to go at the moment. My heating bill for December was $135.00. We did have some below zero, but also had some 30 degree stuff--so it kind of balanced out. In summer, my gas bill goes to less than $10 a month.

3to 4 cords of wood at 135 per cord will run my Blaze King wood stove 24/7 for 8 months straight fire never goes out unless I leave for more than 24 hours and of course no power no worries even cheaper if I go get my own wood but that would cut into spyder time that's bad

 

[ARtraveler]

3to 4 cords of wood at 135 per cord will run my Blaze King wood stove 24/7 for 8 months straight fire never goes out unless I leave for more than 24 hours and of course no power no worries even cheaper if I go get my own wood but that would cut into spyder time that's bad

We did the wood heat in WI before switching to propane. 8 cords for the heating season. I actually enjoyed running the bobcat from the wood pile to fill the wood room each weekend. I would not be able to do that any more--but it was fun while it lasted.

 

[flamingobabe]

I just paid a propane bill of $1024.85 for 306 gallons....but that should get us through the winter....I hope

 

[grumpybob]

I just filled my 500 gal tank at the lowest price available $ 3.56 per gal:yikes:

So, how many heat degree days do you have in a winter? I can afford it, our local economy here has fallen apart and a lot of people are out of work and can not afford to pay that price. How many homeless people have died from the cold there?

 

[jcthorne]

Wow. Interesting to see that natural has as fallen so far that its now cheaper to heat with NG than a ground source HP.

Speaking of HPs. We have a vacation home in Colorado that is currently on electric baseboard heaters. Since we only occupy it a few weeks each winter it is manageable but we would like to spend more time there as we get older. Was thinking about installing a couple of minisplit HPs such as Mitsubishi, LG and Carrier now sell. They rate them to a COP of 3.2 down to 0deg F as long as the dew point is 20Deg below ambient. As the dew point rises, the defrost cycles eat into the efficiency. Ground source HPs do not work well in the area and are VERY expensive to install. Solid rock, steep slope etc. Heck the water well cost over 30k some 30 yrs ago but still flows great water just fine. Anyone have any experience with these minisplits in cold climates?

 

[NancysToy]

Wow. Interesting to see that natural has as fallen so far that its now cheaper to heat with NG than a ground source HP.

Speaking of HPs. We have a vacation home in Colorado that is currently on electric baseboard heaters. Since we only occupy it a few weeks each winter it is manageable but we would like to spend more time there as we get older. Was thinking about installing a couple of minisplit HPs such as Mitsubishi, LG and Carrier now sell. They rate them to a COP of 3.2 down to 0deg F as long as the dew point is 20Deg below ambient. As the dew point rises, the defrost cycles eat into the efficiency. Ground source HPs do not work well in the area and are VERY expensive to install. Solid rock, steep slope etc. Heck the water well cost over 30k some 30 yrs ago but still flows great water just fine. Anyone have any experience with these minisplits in cold climates?

I'm interested in the use of mini-splits in cold climates, too. I'm thinking of going that way for the new pole barn/shop.

 

[jerpinoy]

Let's try to educate all about rocket stove which they claim it uses 75%:yes: less wood than a regular fireplace. You tube have so many post about rocket stove to heat houses efficiently. :yes:

 

[spyder3]

It's not for the faint of heart....but it's good action trading Natural gas... Dgaz & Ugaz .....to say its highly manipulated would be an understatement. :yikes:

 

[billybovine]

I got my gas bill today. It is a biggy. $64.24 for one month with the meter reading done January 10th. That is almost double the month before of $35. That's heat for 2700 sq. ft, hot water, dryer, stove and BBQ. I do burn about 2 face cord of wood in a airtight fireplace a winter, at a cost of $110. To be quite honest it would be cheaper not to burn wood but I like it and only burn it for a couple hours after supper.

Now I am very lucky to have natural gas and it is very cheap source of energy currently. But the real secret is the house. When I had it built in 1992 I insisted high insulation levels, air tight construction methods and a heat recovery ventilator. This was done at an extra cost of $2,000. The builder at the time said it was not necessary and save the money for something else. I do not regret my decision and it has paid for itself long ago.

 

[r1100rider]

I'm interested in the use of mini-splits in cold climates, too. I'm thinking of going that way for the new pole barn/shop.

You have to remember that at 40 and below there is not much heat in the air to condense so air to air heat pumps depend on electric strip heaters at that point that is why the ground source systems work best you have a constant ground temp to work with ,also when looking at these systems one must factor in a very high cost compressor replacement some day,the compressor that only works for 2to 3 months a year for a/c in most climates is now working almost year around for heat and cool

 

[r1100rider]

Let's try to educate all about rocket stove which they claim it uses 75%:yes: less wood than a regular fireplace. You tube have so many post about rocket stove to heat houses efficiently. :yes:

fireplaces are actually a negative heater due to the fact that as soon as the fire is out they keep drafting and pulling heated are out of the house ,now a modern catalytic free standing wood stove will burn up to 60 hours on a load of wood and heat a house for 3 to 4 cords a year with a fire 24/7 8 months long and burn so clean that once up and running leave no visible smoke coming out ,plus when you are cold and wet to the bone no on and off central heat system is anything like backing up to a constant heat source like a wood burner, of course I'm lucky to live where it's 20 min drive tops to all the wood an army of people couldn't make a dent in,I've sold hundreds of these Blaze Kings over the last 35 years and seen people try and argue every other heat source there is only to come in and put in one of these cleanest EPA tested stoves in the world and say goodbye to the man who supply's oil,gas,or electric and the large bills that go with it plus when it's -25 and the power goes out they are warm and not worried about frozen pipes

 

[NancysToy]

You have to remember that at 40 and below there is not much heat in the air to condense so air to air heat pumps depend on electric strip heaters at that point that is why the ground source systems work best you have a constant ground temp to work with ,also when looking at these systems one must factor in a very high cost compressor replacement some day,the compressor that only works for 2to 3 months a year for a/c in most climates is now working almost year around for heat and cool

Can't afford another 30 grand to install a second GSHP in the barn, so I am looking for a viable alternative. Propane and pure electric are mean!

 

[Dragonfly]

Can't afford another 30 grand to install a second GSHP in the barn, so I am looking for a viable alternative. Propane and pure electric are mean!

I'm interested in the use of mini-splits in cold climates, too. I'm thinking of going that way for the new pole barn/shop.

You have to remember that at 40 and below there is not much heat in the air to condense so air to air heat pumps depend on electric strip heaters at that point that is why the ground source systems work best you have a constant ground temp to work with ,also when looking at these systems one must factor in a very high cost compressor replacement some day,the compressor that only works for 2to 3 months a year for a/c in most climates is now working almost year around for heat and cool

Three years ago I installed three Mitsubishi Mini Split Heat Pumps. one 9,000 BTU for the Bedroom, and one each 12,000 BTU for the Kitchen / Breakfast room and the other for the Dining /Living Room. We own an old House built in 1919 with an Oil fired boiler (1953) and radiators throughout the 2700 Sq. Ft 2 story house. I used to burn between 700 to 1200 gal of oil a year. Now I use at an average 30 to 70 gal annually.

Hate to tell you this 1100rider but my mini split carries a 26 SEER rating and even at 4 degrees is still 100% efficient, they are 220 volt with a DC inverter for the variable speed compressor and fans and there is no resistance heat. During the defrost cycle the indoor fan just shuts off. Sure my electric bill has gone up but not like my oil bill would have.

 

[r1100rider]

The

Three years ago I installed three Mitsubishi Mini Split Heat Pumps. one 9,000 BTU for the Bedroom, and one each 12,000 BTU for the Kitchen / Breakfast room and the other for the Dining /Living Room. We own an old House built in 1919 with an Oil fired boiler (1953) and radiators throughout the 2700 Sq. Ft 2 story house. I used to burn between 700 to 1200 gal of oil a year. Now I use at an average 30 to 70 gal annually.

Hate to tell you this 1100rider but my mini split carries a 26 SEER rating and even at 4 degrees is still 100% efficient, they are 220 volt with a DC inverter for the variable speed compressor and fans and there is no resistance heat. During the defrost cycle the indoor fan just shuts off. Sure my electric bill has gone up but not like my oil bill would have.

Yes that is always the argument electricity is 100% efficient meaning all the power going in is used to produce ,but the only thing that matters is what does it cost to run and no power no heat what are install costs and what is parts and life span costs it all has to be factored in

 

[jcthorne]

You have to remember that at 40 and below there is not much heat in the air to condense so air to air heat pumps depend on electric strip heaters at that point that is why the ground source systems work best you have a constant ground temp to work with ,also when looking at these systems one must factor in a very high cost compressor replacement some day,the compressor that only works for 2to 3 months a year for a/c in most climates is now working almost year around for heat and cool

These newer HPs work down to near zero with a COP of 3 or better. Not electric strip heat. There is LOTS of heat in zero degF air. Its just that the larger the temp differential between outdoor and indoor, the larger the pressure swing on the refrigerant cycle. Oh and in a heat cycle, the outdoor coil is the evaporator, not the condenser.

Life of compressors is not an issue. Well made AC systems in Houston last 15 yrs without difficulty and they run 8 months a year. With July and Aug running 15 hrs a day. (if they are sized correctly). A replacement compressor is about $1500 to 2k either way. The point is, the compressor lasts just as long in air to air service as in ground source, its just a larger temp differential.

GS is more efficient yes, but at a MUCH higher install cost. GS can cost 12 to 15k a ton to install, if its even possible at the location in question. At our Durango house it would be over 80k for a 3 ton GS HP, and that would only supply about 60% of heating on a zero deg day.

 

[grumpybob]

We have thought about putting up a windmill for several years. We live in a zone 3 area for generation. I have kept putting it off as I want to build a new place on more acreage ( we have 9.5 acres now), think this summer is the time to build & move. Thinking about having a 40' X 60' pole barn put up and turning it into a house.

 

[r1100rider]

These newer HPs work down to near zero with a COP of 3 or better. Not electric strip heat. There is LOTS of heat in zero degF air. Its just that the larger the temp differential between outdoor and indoor, the larger the pressure swing on the refrigerant cycle. Oh and in a heat cycle, the outdoor coil is the evaporator, not the condenser.

Life of compressors is not an issue. Well made AC systems in Houston last 15 yrs without difficulty and they run 8 months a year. With July and Aug running 15 hrs a day. (if they are sized correctly). A replacement compressor is about $1500 to 2k either way. The point is, the compressor lasts just as long in air to air service as in ground source, its just a larger temp differential.

GS is more efficient yes, but at a MUCH higher install cost. GS can cost 12 to 15k a ton to install, if its even possible at the location in question. At our Durango house it would be over 80k for a 3 ton GS HP, and that would only supply about 60% of heating on a zero deg day.

That's the point I was trying to make in southern climates where freezing temps are rare air to air systems are fine but where it's -10 to 30 for long periods of time like it the more northern mountain areas the systems work there hearts out trying to keep up and have to be supplemented some how I wasn't arguing GS which we all know is the best way if you can afford it just that air to air in cold climates isn't the magic make heat out of thin air it is sold to people as,I've seen these people come in with new houses and heat pumps and $500 electric bills in hand and we put in a wood stove and heat the house all year for less than one month electric bill ,and yes which coil is evap and condenser depends on which cycle it is in heat or cool that's what they are reversible a/c systems

 

[mowin]

Ive had the same 1/4 tank of fuel oil for 5 yrs now. I had a wood stove in the house, and while it worked well, the heat wasnt even in the house. 5 yrs ago I installed a outdoor wood boiler. My house is not well insulated, and only has 2x4 construction. I use 8 cord of wood durring the heating season.

 

[belowme29]

3to 4 cords of wood at 135 per cord will run my Blaze King wood stove 24/7 for 8 months straight fire never goes out unless I leave for more than 24 hours and of course no power no worries even cheaper if I go get my own wood but that would cut into spyder time that's bad

You win. :bowdown: :firstplace:

When I was young, I was the official wood carrier for my parent's house. They used about 4-5 cords a year, and my older brother and I would each be cutting 5 cords of wood each summer and my father would be running the wood splitter. Free labor and neighbor's wood splitter. Can't remember what my dad paid for wood, but he paid us in pepsi or coke - child labor for the price of sugar water.