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Picked up my spare relay
- Thread starter Lamonster
- Start date
NancysToy
Motorbike Professor
The Headlamp Relay (R2) is fed by a 30 amp fuse, but that fuse also serves the 10 amp foglight circuit, which is not relay operated. The Cooling Fan Relay (R4) is fed by a 15 amp fuse. Both these fuses feed both the relay contacts and coils. Main Relay 2 (R3) is fed by the main 40 amp fuse for the contacts, and a 10 amp fuse for the coil (shared with Main Relay 1 coil). The Main Relay 2 contacts feed 4 fuses down circuit, for a total allowable load of 23 amps. Main Relay 1 (R1) contacts are also fed by the 40 amp main fuse. These contacts feed two fuses down circuit, for a total of 25 amps.
Good electrical practice dictates that the any components should be able to carry at least as much amperage as the wires that feed them and the circuit protection (fuses). That would dictate a minimum of a 30 amp relay for the headlights, a 15 amp relay for the fan, and 40 amp relays for the remaining two. Only the stock Tyco fan relay meets this standard, although the load for the headlight relay is probably within limits unless a short circuit develops. The large VF28 Main Relay 1 meets the downstream circuit's requirements, but at 35 amps, is rated slightly below the load of the main fuse. Substitution of the smaller VJ28 relay in this position appears to be insuffiecient for the load, if the Spyder's circuitry has not been changed to accomodate the smaller relay. The possible load on Main Relay 2 exceeds that relay's continuous current rating.
From what I can find, the Tyco VF28 relay is a standard unit with Form A contacts (make-break). The three VJ28 relays are apparently specially ordered from Tyco in a higher rating than their standard VJ28 relay. The Tyco data sheet says this is possible, and it explains the non-standard part number. These would appear to have a Form C contact (changeover), but are used as make-break on the Spyder. It is all very confusing.
As a result of what has been posted here today, and my research, I am no longer comfortable using the Duralast relay as a spare. I will buy one of each of the BRP relays, although they do not seem to be as reliable as they could be...or of sufficient ratings for the most part. They are rated higher than the auto store replacements, however.
-Scotty
Good electrical practice dictates that the any components should be able to carry at least as much amperage as the wires that feed them and the circuit protection (fuses). That would dictate a minimum of a 30 amp relay for the headlights, a 15 amp relay for the fan, and 40 amp relays for the remaining two. Only the stock Tyco fan relay meets this standard, although the load for the headlight relay is probably within limits unless a short circuit develops. The large VF28 Main Relay 1 meets the downstream circuit's requirements, but at 35 amps, is rated slightly below the load of the main fuse. Substitution of the smaller VJ28 relay in this position appears to be insuffiecient for the load, if the Spyder's circuitry has not been changed to accomodate the smaller relay. The possible load on Main Relay 2 exceeds that relay's continuous current rating.
From what I can find, the Tyco VF28 relay is a standard unit with Form A contacts (make-break). The three VJ28 relays are apparently specially ordered from Tyco in a higher rating than their standard VJ28 relay. The Tyco data sheet says this is possible, and it explains the non-standard part number. These would appear to have a Form C contact (changeover), but are used as make-break on the Spyder. It is all very confusing.
As a result of what has been posted here today, and my research, I am no longer comfortable using the Duralast relay as a spare. I will buy one of each of the BRP relays, although they do not seem to be as reliable as they could be...or of sufficient ratings for the most part. They are rated higher than the auto store replacements, however.
-Scotty
Dudley
New member
The Headlamp Relay (R2) is fed by a 30 amp fuse, but that fuse also serves the 10 amp foglight circuit, which is not relay operated. The Cooling Fan Relay (R4) is fed by a 15 amp fuse. Both these fuses feed both the relay contacts and coils. Main Relay 2 (R3) is fed by the main 40 amp fuse for the contacts, and a 10 amp fuse for the coil (shared with Main Relay 1 coil). The Main Relay 2 contacts feed 4 fuses down circuit, for a total allowable load of 23 amps. Main Relay 1 (R1) contacts are also fed by the 40 amp main fuse. These contacts feed two fuses down circuit, for a total of 25 amps.
Good electrical practice dictates that the any components should be able to carry at least as much amperage as the wires that feed them and the circuit protection (fuses). That would dictate a minimum of a 30 amp relay for the headlights, a 15 amp relay for the fan, and 40 amp relays for the remaining two. Only the stock Tyco fan relay meets this standard, although the load for the headlight relay is probably within limits unless a short circuit develops. The large VF28 Main Relay 1 meets the downstream circuit's requirements, but at 35 amps, is rated slightly below the load of the main fuse. Substitution of the smaller VJ28 relay in this position appears to be insuffiecient for the load, if the Spyder's circuitry has not been changed to accomodate the smaller relay. The possible load on Main Relay 2 exceeds that relay's continuous current rating.
From what I can find, the Tyco VF28 relay is a standard unit with Form A contacts (make-break). The three VJ28 relays are apparently specially ordered from Tyco in a higher rating than their standard VJ28 relay. The Tyco data sheet says this is possible, and it explains the non-standard part number. These would appear to have a Form C contact (changeover), but are used as make-break on the Spyder. It is all very confusing.
As a result of what has been posted here today, and my research, I am no longer comfortable using the Duralast relay as a spare. I will buy one of each of the BRP relays, although they do not seem to be as reliable as they could be...or of sufficient ratings for the most part. They are rated higher than the auto store replacements, however.
-Scotty
:dontknow::sour::helpsmilie::yikes:
ray:I am sooooooooo confused!!!!!
NancysToy
Motorbike Professor
Me too, and I'm the one that wrote it! :dontknow: In a nutshell, I don't feel the Autozone and other replacement relays are rated high enough, even though they seem to have worked for most people. I'm buying some BRP relays just to be safe.
I am sooooooooo confused!!!!!
-Scotty
bjt
Very Helpful Member
I'll differ with Scotty and Rando's buddy on this one. After looking through the schematics, I think the VJ28 replacements (Duralast, BWD, etc.) that people are buying from auto parts stores are good enough for all three positions and possibly good enough to replace the larger main relay.
These are my reasons...
My Duralast relay was actually manufactured by Pokorny and this is a data sheet of their Micro relays. It is very similar to the TYCO VJ28 relays that are rated at 20/10 but their data sheet isn't as complete as the TYCO data sheet. It may have identical specs. :dontknow: Assuming they are identical, I'll use the more complete TYCO data sheet for this information. First thing I'm going to do is disregard that 10 amp portion of their rating as the Spyder does not use that contact in any of the three relay positions. Next, the 20 amp contact rating is at 85° C or 185° F. At 23° C (about 75° F) the contacts are rated at 25 amps. I think that in the Spyder fuseholder location, the relays will operate in temps closer to 75° F than 185° F so the contacts can reliably handle more than 20 amps continuous, maybe up to 25 amps. Finally, the contacts are rated for an electrical of endurance of greater than 100,000 cycles at 20 amps load (they can turn on and off over 100,000 times while passing 20 amps through the contacts without failing).
The Headlamp relay is fused at 30 amps but feeds a 10 amp foglight fuse which doesn't go through the headlight relay. So the relay itself is counted on handling something less than 30 amps. The stock BRP lights are 55 watts times 2 or 110 watts total. 110 watts divided by 12 volts is the 9.1 (actually 9.1667) amps that lamonster referenced. I'm not sure what the HID lights and ballasts draw but I thought someone said that it was less than the stock lights. I'm not sure what the high/low shutter solenoid draws but it surely can't be more than 10 amps. Those are the only devices (headlamps and solenoids) that are powered through that relay. So, probably 99% of the time, that relay is passing current that is less than 20 amps likely only around 10 amps depending on when the solenoids are drawing power.
The Fan relay is fused at 15 amps. There is nothing else in that circuit so the 20 amp relay should be able to handle that circuit. I'm not sure what the actually fan motor electrical specs / current draw is but it should be less than the 15 amps its fused at.
The Main 2 relay feeds a 5 amp cluster fuse, a 10 amp (diagnostic connector, clutch valve, horn) fuse, a 3 amp switched accessory fuse and a 5 amp DPS control fuse. Of all those things, I think the horn is the highest current draw and that is only a seldom used, short duration draw. Some folks don't use the switched accessory connection at all or only sometimes so at least those two items would drop the total current draw down under 20 amps. The diagnostic connector would only draw power during maintenance / testing so that could further decrease the current draw of that portion of that circuit. I think its reasonable to expect that the Main 2 relay circuit draws less than 20 amps under normal operation. Note: being the switched accessory is powered through this relay with all these different devices in the circuit, it is just one more reason to not run more than 3 amps worth of accessories through that circuit.
On our 2008 Spyders, the Main 1 relay should continue to be the higher rated VF28 relay. I'm not sure what the actual current draws of all the devices it feeds is but it feeds a total of 25 amps of fuses. However, I think we can see that the VJ28 relay (operating in around 75° F temps) could probably be counted on to "get you home" if that main relay went kaput. Maybe the 2009 Spyder that was pictured with a VJ28 relay in this position has a different circuit design or different devices in the circuit that don't draw as much current through the relay. :dontknow:
Anyone who knows more about this, feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.
These are my reasons...
My Duralast relay was actually manufactured by Pokorny and this is a data sheet of their Micro relays. It is very similar to the TYCO VJ28 relays that are rated at 20/10 but their data sheet isn't as complete as the TYCO data sheet. It may have identical specs. :dontknow: Assuming they are identical, I'll use the more complete TYCO data sheet for this information. First thing I'm going to do is disregard that 10 amp portion of their rating as the Spyder does not use that contact in any of the three relay positions. Next, the 20 amp contact rating is at 85° C or 185° F. At 23° C (about 75° F) the contacts are rated at 25 amps. I think that in the Spyder fuseholder location, the relays will operate in temps closer to 75° F than 185° F so the contacts can reliably handle more than 20 amps continuous, maybe up to 25 amps. Finally, the contacts are rated for an electrical of endurance of greater than 100,000 cycles at 20 amps load (they can turn on and off over 100,000 times while passing 20 amps through the contacts without failing).
The Headlamp relay is fused at 30 amps but feeds a 10 amp foglight fuse which doesn't go through the headlight relay. So the relay itself is counted on handling something less than 30 amps. The stock BRP lights are 55 watts times 2 or 110 watts total. 110 watts divided by 12 volts is the 9.1 (actually 9.1667) amps that lamonster referenced. I'm not sure what the HID lights and ballasts draw but I thought someone said that it was less than the stock lights. I'm not sure what the high/low shutter solenoid draws but it surely can't be more than 10 amps. Those are the only devices (headlamps and solenoids) that are powered through that relay. So, probably 99% of the time, that relay is passing current that is less than 20 amps likely only around 10 amps depending on when the solenoids are drawing power.
The Fan relay is fused at 15 amps. There is nothing else in that circuit so the 20 amp relay should be able to handle that circuit. I'm not sure what the actually fan motor electrical specs / current draw is but it should be less than the 15 amps its fused at.
The Main 2 relay feeds a 5 amp cluster fuse, a 10 amp (diagnostic connector, clutch valve, horn) fuse, a 3 amp switched accessory fuse and a 5 amp DPS control fuse. Of all those things, I think the horn is the highest current draw and that is only a seldom used, short duration draw. Some folks don't use the switched accessory connection at all or only sometimes so at least those two items would drop the total current draw down under 20 amps. The diagnostic connector would only draw power during maintenance / testing so that could further decrease the current draw of that portion of that circuit. I think its reasonable to expect that the Main 2 relay circuit draws less than 20 amps under normal operation. Note: being the switched accessory is powered through this relay with all these different devices in the circuit, it is just one more reason to not run more than 3 amps worth of accessories through that circuit.
On our 2008 Spyders, the Main 1 relay should continue to be the higher rated VF28 relay. I'm not sure what the actual current draws of all the devices it feeds is but it feeds a total of 25 amps of fuses. However, I think we can see that the VJ28 relay (operating in around 75° F temps) could probably be counted on to "get you home" if that main relay went kaput. Maybe the 2009 Spyder that was pictured with a VJ28 relay in this position has a different circuit design or different devices in the circuit that don't draw as much current through the relay. :dontknow:
Anyone who knows more about this, feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.
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bjt
Very Helpful Member
NancysToy
Motorbike Professor
:thumbup: Brian, I approached this from a strictly engineering point of view, and I'm sure you will agree that the fusing and the relay ratings don't seem to match. I like your more practical approach, and certainly agree that the actual loads on the circuits are probably far less than what the circuits are fused to handle, or what the relays are rated for. I also agree that a Duralast relay will be very likely to get you home...in any position. I am still hesitant to use one in the long run, however, given the higher rating of the custom VJ28 relays that are standard on the Spyder. They did not use the standard relay for a reason. We also both seem to agree that the earlier Spyders, at least, should probably use the VF28 relays for Main Relay 1. I will probably continue to keep a Duralast relay in the trunk as a spare, but I am certain to put at least one of each of the BRP relays on the shelf as a precaution, especially since they need to be ordered from most dealers. 
-Scotty
-Scotty
bjt
Very Helpful Member
I tried approaching at least some of it from an engineering point of view also. I'm just more cynical than you about things like this. IMO, there are many reasons why a certain device is chosen when designing and building a product. One thing I have learned over the years of working in an industrial field is that just because something was used in the original manufacture of a product doesn't make it the only correct or even the most correct thing to use. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who aren't as careful about how they do their job as I feel you or many of us would be. For all we know, the engineer in charge of the relays for the Spyder has a lot of stock in TYCO or got some type of kickback for "specifying" a non-standard relay. Stuff like that happens. :sour:
BTW, I'm not calling the BRP engineers incompetent but I don't believe they are God's gift to the engineering field either. For the most part, they have designed a super product right out of the gate with only a few major or semi-major problems.
BTW, I'm not calling the BRP engineers incompetent but I don't believe they are God's gift to the engineering field either. For the most part, they have designed a super product right out of the gate with only a few major or semi-major problems.
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Much of the "special" part decision is to push business to their dealers for parts. They need you in dealer stores so you see more, buy more. If they used all off the shelf stuff, we'd all be in auto parts stores instead of the dealers. Oil, relays, light bulbs, tires are dealer profit items and in the end, that's not bad for us a owners.
Rando
New member
relay replacement found
From another Spyder owner:
MasterPro Ignition part BWD REF: R3110 (SMP REF: RY-232) is exactly the same as the relay in our Spyder. This relay can be purchased at Murray’s. We compared the relay in the Spyder with the BWD: R3110. They are identical…including the schematic drawing, as well as the amperage at each terminal/prong.
Rodger at NordRide in Mount Morris, MI says the OEM relay we got at Murray’s is good. He also said that BRP sells this part for about $10.00. Now whether this price is to the dealers or the consumer, I don’t know. With that said, Murray’s sells it for around $9.00.
From another Spyder owner:
MasterPro Ignition part BWD REF: R3110 (SMP REF: RY-232) is exactly the same as the relay in our Spyder. This relay can be purchased at Murray’s. We compared the relay in the Spyder with the BWD: R3110. They are identical…including the schematic drawing, as well as the amperage at each terminal/prong.
Rodger at NordRide in Mount Morris, MI says the OEM relay we got at Murray’s is good. He also said that BRP sells this part for about $10.00. Now whether this price is to the dealers or the consumer, I don’t know. With that said, Murray’s sells it for around $9.00.
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dltang
Very Handy Member
Roger is our service manger for our spyders and he knows his stuff but NordRide is not in Brighton, it is in Mount Morris, just north of Flint.
Rando
New member
Oops! My mistake. I fixed my original post.
3wheeldemon
New member
Replacement Relays
I found equivalent relays from Song Chuan Relays
Main: TYCO VF28-15F14-S01 is identical to Song Chuan 898H-1CH-C-R1-U03-12VDC
Other three relays: TYCO VJ28-95F24-S01 is identical to Song Chuan 301-1C-C-R1-U01-12VDC
J
I found equivalent relays from Song Chuan Relays
Main: TYCO VF28-15F14-S01 is identical to Song Chuan 898H-1CH-C-R1-U03-12VDC
Other three relays: TYCO VJ28-95F24-S01 is identical to Song Chuan 301-1C-C-R1-U01-12VDC
J
bone crusher
Alignment Specialist
Order relays from Perry Performance (oem)...I ordered online...price is like 9.00 for the smaller relay and 30.00 for the bigger one...
To avoid any problems, this is probably the way to go...
To avoid any problems, this is probably the way to go...
ataDude
Mod Maniac
.
Just curious... why would you want to replace a stock relay with apparent reliability problems with more of the same? :hun:
I've several of the Duralasts now for more than a year with no further problems.
.
bone crusher
Alignment Specialist
Who's to say the Duralast is any better? Where is it documented that the stock relays have reliability issues? Perhaps on a case-by-case basis there are problems, but I'm sure not all the relays in all the bikes are bad. If we all had Duralast, we might have all the same issues, or even worse.
Think of all the mods we do to the bikes...some might not sit too well with the electrical system...
Also consider the vibration issue, any faulty lines, etc...
If a fuse or relay goes out over and over again, there is obviously a more serious problem...
My relays are fine so far and I hope they stay that way...if not, it's nice to have a few extras, no matter which brand they are. Only time will tell if the electrical system is faulty in any way...these things shouldn't be blowing under normal conditions regardless of which brand name they have on them...chances are that they're all made in the same factory anyway??
ataDude
Mod Maniac
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