Overdue Report About MTV Replacement Front Springs and Brake Discs

[PMK]

Troop, plans changed yesterday. Spent the day cutting, modifying and welding the rear frame and suspension on another friends moto trials bike. Was not able to ride his Spyder yet. Maybe today.

Will say though, that his comments after several rides are all positive. He now realizes that the discussions my friend and I had a while back (prior to Martin offering springs), were valid regarding replacement of the springs with those better suited for his weight.

His #1 comment is that the oem springs allowed the front end to dive under braking. The new firmer springs are supporting the front far better under the weight shift from braking. This lessened front end dive, and reduced the squirm under hard braking. This mimics what I find with our Spyder. I align the front ends with minimal toe in, and under hard braking, the front end dive, toes out both wheels, contributing to the squirm. Not dangerous or bad, just part of the Spyders primitive steering design. Besides, we ride far more miles without hard braking, than the few moments we do brake hard. Set the alignment for the majority of riding, not the minority.

His #2 comment was that sway induced from crowned roads is essentially gone. We have a nearby 50 mph road with multiple crowns from wear to the road. Our Spyder, and our cars / trucks, experience that side to side movement as the vehicle finds equilibrium of the crown and tires. The Spyders have the most difficult time, on account of the rear wheel riding a crowns peak. The firmer springs, lessen the steering input to maintain traveling straight, vs that side to side from the road surface. This mimics what I experience our Spyder.

That said, I did take a minute to do the stand on the floorboards and rock the Spyder test. Compared to our 2014 RTS with the BRP accessories Fox Shox, the Fox Shox we have, are valved more firmly in rebound, compression damping is similar. That is comparing oem Sachs shocks to the Fox Shox.

As for the floorboard test regarding the springs, his new springs are a similar, firmer feel, to the Fox Shox setup. Really need to ride it for a better, more accurate comparison.

I still need to accomplish the flush and bleed of his Spyders brake system, plus laser align it once everything is settled.
There is a good chance, at that time, I will remove his shocks, remove the springs and further modify the BajaRon parts. Will know more on that after I verify the angles of the suspension with him on it, while on the slip plates. With minimal effort, I expect to take his Spyders handling and comfort level up a level.

Will let you know after I ride it. Really want to try those brakes too, they are way cool. Expensive, but way cool. If we ever warp a brake disc, the floating discs will be my choice for replacement. Performance be damned, they look killer and like decals making a motorcycle faster, the discs simply look fast.

 

[larryd]

PMK, Did you get to ride this Spyder with the H&R upgrade yet??? Thanks, larryd

 

[PMK]

Ok folks, finally got together with my friend, and am offering up a ride report and description of the work accomplished.

Several weeks ago, I helped my long time friend with his 2021 RT Limited. He had purchased for himself, a few Spyder Christmas gifts. This included two items from Martin the Vlogger/Ride on Three (or something like that) and an item from Sling Mods.

No ride report on the TricLed mirror lights he got from Slingmods. As expected, typical marginal quality TricLed stuff, which had new parts that were defective. Nuff said about that, but they are now installed and working correctly.

The meat and potatoes… the parts from Martin.
Installing the two replacement floating brake discs was not difficult, provided the installer has proper tools. Once properly and safely jacked, the front wheels are removed, followed by removing each brake caliper. With calipers removed, the brake discs simply slide off the hubs. The new discs slide onto the hubs. Reinstalling the calipers may require spreading the brake pads slightly to allow the caliper to reinstall over the new discs. Essentially, a very easy task. After reinstalling and correctly torquing the wheel retention lug nuts, depress the brake pedal slowly a few times to set the brake pads against the discs.

Upon initially riding the Spyder, plan to accomplish the process you decide best, to bed in the brakes. Typically, a series of five hard braking events from around 40 mph to a complete stop, do not allow the brakes to cool between stops.

Regarding the new front springs, that task is much more difficult. Both front shocks must be removed. A spring compressor is required to remove the springs, and to install the new springs.
My friends Spyder, I had previously installed BajaRon Preload adjusters. I did modify his preload adjuster to work with the new H&R/Martin springs. Be known though, that spring preload was not increased, nor decreased on these OEM Sachs front shocks. If my friend choses, he can add preload. Realize though, that none is needed.

My friend has a few weeks of miles on his new brake discs and springs. I wanted that done so that the suspension would settle before I checked his front wheel alignment.

FWIW, he is about 6’3” and 270 or so pounds. His comments regarding the brakes were that they stopped better. No squeaks or rubbing was noticed.
Regarding the springs, his comment was improved stability, no front dive under braking, and no shimmy under hard braking.

My report reads as follows. The brake discs look stunningly fabulous. I rode the Spyder and found the braking was superior to our 2014 RTS that runs OEM brake discs and BajaRon EBC HH brake pads. (Note that my friends Spyder still has the OEM Brembo brake pads). So then, regarding those brake discs, I am very impressed. One concern, and I have not checked, was if the Centramatic balancer rings will fit and have enough clearance for the new floating style brake disc rivets. So if you run Centramatic balancers, this needs to be verified. Simply did not have time to remove a Centramatic from our Spyder to test this.

The new front springs. HUGE improvement over OEM and OEM with BajaRon preload adjusters. My past experience found OEM suspension to be soft and more towards plush. Our own Spyder, the 2014 RTS has had BRP accessory aftermarket Fox Shox on it for a long time and many miles. The Fox Shox are valved with firmer damping and have firmer coil springs. This gave me a good basis to evaluate.

FWIW, I weigh 205 pounds and rise to 5’10”. Not as tall or as heavy as my friend.

When I headed out on his Spyder, I immediately began sawing the handlebars left to right/right to left. Response was crisp, with good feel, and no excessive chassis roll for the input applied to the bars. Typical corners were handled smoothly, with superb stability. Under hard braking, no front squirm existed, unless a bump introduced compression of the suspension, sending the wheels toe out. Once the chassis resettled, squirm immediately vanished.

Overall, superb and impressive handling.

But wait, there’s more! The H&R/Martin springs, installed on OEM Sachs shocks are more plush than our Fox Shox setup. I intentionally ran over road dots. Doing so, the Sachs shocks, being valved softer than our Fox Shox, my friend's setup was far more plush than ours over those road dots and no doubt similar obstacles as we ride. The reason for more plushness with the Sachs shocks is as I mentioned, the Fox Shox have firmer internal valving to control damping.

Also want to add, both ours and my friends Spyders both have original style BajaRon swaybars. This allows a more fair comparison.

To close, I will say for heavier riders, teams that ride two up, or taller riders, the replacement springs hit the mark from a cost vs performance value, especially if comparing against new performance shocks.

The brake discs are truly high end, and while cool beyond cool, they are expensive. Not knowing how they compare price wise to the EBC brake discs, I have no cost comparison point. Will say though, that when we need brake discs, I will buy the aftermarket floating type from Martin, after I ensure they will clearance the Cetramatic balancers.

Hope it helped, have fun, be safe.

 

[K80Shooter]

Thanks for the report PMK!

 

[larryd]

Any idea if the H&R springs will fit or can be adapted to the BRP Fox Shox's??? larryd

 

[PMK]

Any idea if the H&R springs will fit or can be adapted to the BRP Fox Shox's??? larryd

As I mentioned in previous posts, I did not take the springs off my spare set of Fox Shox and test fit the H&R springs onto the Fox Shox. Maybe at some point time will allow it, but not quite yet.

 

[PMK]

Any idea if the H&R springs will fit or can be adapted to the BRP Fox Shox's??? larryd

Rethought your request. It may be later this week, but if I grab the spare set of Fox Shox, and hopefully the collars release easily, I can compare my friends oem springs vs the BRP / Fox Shox springs and get a very good idea if they will fit at all, or with minimal changes, or best would be plug and play.

 

[Mosess01]

MR PMK, I have installed the sway bar from Martin and the rotors along with the springs. I absolutely love this setup. No more collapsing in corners and no more side to side wandering. the brakes are fantastic ... I am now waiting to install car tires on the '21 RTL.

I believe this is the best setup, especially if you love hitting the corners and if you have a passenger on board.

 

[troop]

Just got around to getting the H&R springs on this week. Only put a few miles on it afterwards, but they are immediately noticeable. No more wallowing in corners, with a much tighter, planted feel. They certainly don't feel stiff over road imperfections. Gonna like these.

 

[PMK]

Just got around to getting the H&R springs on this week. Only put a few miles on it afterwards, but they are immediately noticeable. No more wallowing in corners, with a much tighter feel. They certainly don't feel stiff over road imperfections. Gonna like these.

Many folks do not understand proper suspension setup. Unfortunately, regardless of the motorcycle brand or type, often, owners (riders) deem that simply increasing a springs preload vs installing a correctly rated spring is equal in performance. Simply, it is not.

Same vehicle, same rider, two differently rated springs. The firmer spring will support the initial weight at a correct ride height (sag). The softer spring with additional preload can also support the initial weight at a correct ride height.

However, the softer spring, will retain more stored energy at ride height, and this results in a vague feel, and often harshness on small sharp bumps.

As the suspension compresses, typically, the firmer spring will offer better mid travel support, and provide better bottoming control.

The softer spring with preload, many times is not capable of supporting the mid stroke or bottoming control as the overall spring force of the softer spring is less in mid stroke and bottoming. The science of math can plot straight rate spring graphs, allowing a visual to see the force comparison overlays.

Also, a preloaded soft spring does not tend to follow the ground, preferring to rather “bounce” off the full extension top out cushion inside the shock itself.

No doubt Troop, the change you felt, is a firmer but planted feel, same as I found when riding my friends 21 RT. Yes it was a spendy upgrade, but a huge improvement for my friend.

BTW, Troop, save your lunch money and buy the brake discs. They are sweet and work very well. No more EBC stuff on our Spyder once worn.

 

[Snoking1127]

I will offer up my experience and where I am currently with two 2018 RTL's

I bought the Champagne on in fall of 2020. I installed the Bajaron sway bar early on, then the Bajaron preload adjusters, then Federal Formoza up front and a General Altimax RT43 out back. I then was very happy with how it handled in the twisties and on I-10 South of Phoenix with lots of semi traffic. Each thing was an incremental improvement in handling and stability. Then I decided that I wanted PPA aftermarket wheels, and installed Vredestein Quatrac SL's along with Centramatic balancers. This brought on another incremental improvement in handling and stability. I put around 6-8K miles with this setup and was quite happy. I am 6'2" or 3" tall and weigh 220+/-.

Fast forward to the purchase of the second 2018 recently that came with Alka stage one front shocks. I installed a Bajaron sway bar and moved front tires/wheels around between machines. Note: This newer machine had a screwed up Kenda on the left front, that even the Centramatic balancers could not smooth out.

So the newer Asphalt Grey one has the PPA wheels/Vredestein tires and the Centramatic balancer, ElKA shocks, Bajaron sway bar and handling is amazing! At 79 years old I do not know if I will find it's true limits, however I do like to ride the twisties and go vroom vroom. In the wake of a semi I get buffeted around "myself" on a rock solid machine that goes straight down the road. It does ride firmer on highways with expansion joints every 20 or 30 feet, however I will gladly live with that.

I have not yet decide what tire will be going out back, probably in the fall. This trike had 8240 miles on it when I got it, and I have put around 1500 miles on it in a few weeks. It is going to be my Arizona trike, and I will fly back and ride the Champagne one to Washington in early June as my summer trike with the OEM chrome wheels with the Federal Formoza and General as tires.

 

[PMK]

For folks that asked, yes my spare Fox Shox I got from storage and unwound the Fox preload rings. Need to still use the spring compressor to get the springs off. Was hopeful the preload collar threads on the shock body would release the spring, but it did not. Be patient. With luck, I will get the spring off and find time to determine the spring rate in the tester.

Still looking for a failed oem 2014 to 2019 RT rear shock. Want to test that oem spring for rate, and measure the damper in prep to custom build a rear Fox Shox for our 2014 RTS.

 

[PMK]

I will offer up my experience and where I am currently with two 2018 RTL's

I bought the Champagne on in fall of 2020. I installed the Bajaron sway bar early on, then the Bajaron preload adjusters, then Federal Formoza up front and a General Altimax RT43 out back. I then was very happy with how it handled in the twisties and on I-10 South of Phoenix with lots of semi traffic. Each thing was an incremental improvement in handling and stability. Then I decided that I wanted PPA aftermarket wheels, and installed Vredestein Quatrac SL's along with Centramatic balancers. This brought on another incremental improvement in handling and stability. I put around 6-8K miles with this setup and was quite happy. I am 6'2" or 3" tall and weigh 220+/-.

Fast forward to the purchase of the second 2018 recently that came with Alka stage one front shocks. I installed a Bajaron sway bar and moved front tires/wheels around between machines. Note: This newer machine had a screw Kenda on the left front, that even the Centramatic balancers could not smooth out.

So the newer Asphalt Grey one has the PPA wheels/Vredestein tires and the Centramatic balancer, ElKA shocks, Bajaron sway bar and handling is amazing! At 79 years old I do not know if I will find it's true limits, however I do like to ride the twisties and go vroom vroom. In the wake of a semi I get buffeted around "myself" on a rock solid machine that goes straight down the road. It does ride firmer on highways for joins every 20 or 30 feet, however I will gladly live with that.

I have not yet decide was tire will be going out back, probably in the fall. This trike had 8240 miles on it when I got it, and I have put around 1500 miles on it in a few weeks. It is going to be my Arizona trike, and I will fly back and ride the Champagne one to Washington in early June as my summer trike with the OEM chrome wheels with the Federal Formoza and General as tires.

There is a large performance suspension company's slogan that states:, “the best you know, is the best you’ve ridden”.

At your 220 pounds, assuming Elka sprung you correctly, it should be an acceptable setup as you described.

Our 2014 RTS was bought January of 2014. It has been ridden totally stock. Has been ridden with oem Kenda tires (balanced correctly by me) with an one piece BajaRon front swaybar and oem shocks.

It has been ridden with BRP accessory Fox Shox, and the BajaRon bar.

Currently, for a longtime, it has rolled on Federal Formoza tires, Fox Shox, and BajaRon swaybar.

Yes, each change was noticeable.

If given the chance to do it again, I would probably do only the Fox Shox and tires. Those two items showed the largest improvement. The BajaRon bar was a huge improvement with stock tires and stock Sachs shocks / springs.

With luck, if I can find time, I hope to make chassis adjustments, resetting the instantaneous chassis roll center AND in doing so, taking a slight bit of harshness out of the front. If I had kept the oem swaybar, that would go back in also. Just has that “feel” that both front suspensions are too well connected by the firmer swaybar.

Cool setup you have though.

 

[Snoking1127]

There is a large performance suspension company's slogan that states:, “the best you know, is the best you’ve ridden”.

At your 220 pounds, assuming Elka sprung you correctly, it should be an acceptable setup as you described.

Our 2014 RTS was bought January of 2014. It has been ridden totally stock. Has been ridden with oem Kenda tires (balanced correctly by me) with an one piece BajaRon front swaybar and oem shocks.

It has been ridden with BRP accessory Fox Shox, and the BajaRon bar.

Currently, for a longtime, it has rolled on Federal Formoza tires, Fox Shox, and BajaRon swaybar.

Yes, each change was noticeable.

If given the chance to do it again, I would probably do only the Fox Shox and tires. Those two items showed the largest improvement. The BajaRon bar was a huge improvement with stock tires and stock Sachs shocks / springs.

With luck, if I can find time, I hope to make chassis adjustments, resetting the instantaneous chassis roll center AND in doing so, taking a slight bit of harshness out of the front. If I had kept the oem swaybar, that would go back in also. Just has that “feel” that both front suspensions are too well connected by the firmer swaybar.

Cool setup you have though.

I have a collection(3 or 4) of OEM sway bars in the man cave if you want to pay for the shipping from 85118 zip code. And OEM links.

 

[Snoking1127]

I will offer up my experience and where I am currently with two 2018 RTL's

I bought the Champagne on in fall of 2020. I installed the Bajaron sway bar early on, then the Bajaron preload adjusters, then Federal Formoza up front and a General Altimax RT43 out back. I then was very happy with how it handled in the twisties and on I-10 South of Phoenix with lots of semi traffic. Each thing was an incremental improvement in handling and stability. Then I decided that I wanted PPA aftermarket wheels, and installed Vredestein Quatrac SL's along with Centramatic balancers. This brought on another incremental improvement in handling and stability. I put around 6-8K miles with this setup and was quite happy. I am 6'2" or 3" tall and weigh 220+/-.

Fast forward to the purchase of the second 2018 recently that came with Alka stage one front shocks. I installed a Bajaron sway bar and moved front tires/wheels around between machines. Note: This newer machine had a screwed up Kenda on the left front, that even the Centramatic balancers could not smooth out.

So the newer Asphalt Grey one has the PPA wheels/Vredestein tires and the Centramatic balancer, ElKA shocks, Bajaron sway bar and handling is amazing! At 79 years old I do not know if I will find it's true limits, however I do like to ride the twisties and go vroom vroom. In the wake of a semi I get buffeted around "myself" on a rock solid machine that goes straight down the road. It does ride firmer on highways with expansion joints every 20 or 30 feet, however I will gladly live with that.

I have not yet decide what tire will be going out back, probably in the fall. This trike had 8240 miles on it when I got it, and I have put around 1500 miles on it in a few weeks. It is going to be my Arizona trike, and I will fly back and ride the Champagne one to Washington in early June as my summer trike with the OEM chrome wheels with the Federal Formoza and General as tires.

Another follow-up. I rode the newer Asphalt Grey one today for about 90 miles and am quite happy with it. So I jumped on the older Champagne one and did four 40 MPH stops to seat the new brake pads. This one has the Bajaron bar and preload adjusters plus the Federal Formoza tires. The comparison: Lots of nose diving on hard braking. Took it on a twisties road and noticed a lot more chassis roll in corners and the feeling of the inside tire lifting.

So I think it will be getting some springs. Does anyone have a link to domestic (US) springs that would get the job done?

I have put about 1700 miles on the newer machine in this first month!!! :yes:

 

[larryd]

Another follow-up. I rode the newer Asphalt Grey one today for about 90 miles and am quite happy with it. So I jumped on the older Champagne one and did four 40 MPH stops to seat the new brake pads. This one has the Bajaron bar and preload adjusters plus the Federal Formoza tires. The comparison: Lots of nose diving on hard braking. Took it on a twisties road and noticed a lot more chassis roll in corners and the feeling of the inside tire lifting.

So I think it will be getting some springs. Does anyone have a link to domestic (US) springs that would get the job done?

I have put about 1700 miles on the newer machine in this first month!!! :yes:

I want to make sure I'm following correctly - The only difference between your two machines is: the one has Elka shocks, and you see improved handling; and the other has Ron's adjustors on stock shocks and you don't like the handling??? larryd

 

[Snoking1127]

I want to make sure I'm following correctly - The only difference between your two machines is: the one has Elka shocks, and you see improved handling; and the other has Ron's adjustors on stock shocks and you don't like the handling??? larryd

Correct, the one with the Elka shocks corners very level with very little body roll; vs the other one with sway bar, stock shocks, and Ron's adjusters that I cranked up several notches a couple years ago.

AND today, my buddy Jerry and I rode to the end of the pavement past Tortilla Flats. Coming back, I suggested switching trikes for the 5.5 miles of twisties back down to Tortilla Flats. His is also a 2018 with a Bajaron sway bar and all Kenda tires. I noticed right away more body roll and the lifting feeling of the inside tire on corners.

We are still on our own machines in the picture. Jerry in short and stockier than I am. He noticed that mine corners better than his. We both actually have two 2018's each. His white one, that is up in Colorado, is all stock this winter. He claims not to notice that much difference. However, his daughter likes the blue one much better, and refuses to ride the white one.

His daughter came on the East Valley Spyder riders FB page a couple/three years ago and said her dad was retired in Az in the winter and need someone to ride with once in a while, and I ask where he was, and it turned out he is only a couple miles away. He is a retire LEO and a good guy to ride with, as he has GOOJFC as he is allowed to still carry a badge.

 

[larryd]

Correct, the one with the Elka shocks corners very level with very little body roll; vs the other one with sway bar, stock shocks, and Ron's adjusters that I cranked up several notches a couple years ago.

AND today, my buddy Jerry and I rode to the end of the pavement past Tortilla Flats. Coming back, I suggested switching trikes for the 5.5 miles of twisties back down to Tortilla Flats. His is also a 2018 with a Bajaron sway bar and all Kenda tires. I noticed right away more body roll and the lifting feeling of the inside tire on corners.

We are still on our own machines in the picture. Jerry in short and stockier than I am. He noticed that mine corners better than his. We both actually have two 2018's each. His white one, that is up in Colorado, is all stock this winter. He claims not to notice that much difference. However, his daughter likes the blue one much better, and refuses to ride the white one.

His daughter came on the East Valley Spyder riders FB page a couple/three years ago and said her dad was retired in Az in the winter and need someone to ride with once in a while, and I ask where he was, and it turned out he is only a couple miles away. He is a retire LEO and a good guy to ride with, as he has GOOJFC as he is allowed to still carry a badge.

Sound to me like you might be a good candidate for Martins H & R shock spring upgrade to your stock shocks - Less expensive than a set of Elka's and an easy-to-do fix??? PMK gave them a good review after installing them on his friend's machine. larryd

PS, I should think about spending the winters in a warmer place These PA winters are totally boring. It hasn't snowed nearly enough to ride the snowmobile for several years, AND TIME IS CATCHING UP WITH ME - I'm now 81. larryd

 

[larryd]

Any idea if the H&R springs will fit or can be adapted to the BRP Fox Shox's??? larryd

I finally got around to this task. I removed my Fox shocks from my 2014 RTS and installed the H&R springs on my Fox shocks. The top mounting plate is a perfect fit. The bottom of the springs mounts directly on the top spanner adjusting nut. This adjusting nut has a collar that keeps the spring centered on the shock, but it will NOT fit into the bottom of the H&R spring (like the problem with the BaJaRon adjustors). I could have spun the collar off in the lathe, but that would have reduced the amount of thread contact on the shock to half. I chose to install the collar upside down, then adjusted the preload length to the same setting as if installed on the Sachs stock RTS shocks. Did a short ride road test with 2-up onboard and it definitely improved the roll in cornering. More to come after a day trip of riding. larryd

 

[helton61]

I finally got around to this task. I removed my Fox shocks from my 2014 RTS and installed the H&R springs on my Fox shocks. The top mounting plate is a perfect fit. The bottom of the springs mounts directly on the top spanner adjusting nut. This adjusting nut has a collar that keeps the spring centered on the shock, but it will NOT fit into the bottom of the H&R spring (like the problem with the BaJaRon adjustors). I could have spun the collar off in the lathe, but that would have reduced the amount of thread contact on the shock to half. I chose to install the collar upside down, then adjusted the preload length to the same setting as if installed on the Sachs stock RTS shocks. Did a short ride road test with 2-up onboard and it definitely improved the roll in cornering. More to come after a day trip of riding. larryd

Thanks Larry for doing this mod good info for us Thanks