Ok now what please check out

[lonnibdd]

Ok guys I had another thread about missing and such. Well:gaah::gaah::gaah::gaah::gaah: I put the 02 sensor on and didint take off jb just yet wanted to see how it would run so i just put settings 1-3 @ .5 . when i strarted it i STILL heard the miss but now that the air box was off I could see this watch video sorry no sound was from my phone so any ways all kinds of fire at about 2grand intakes. Correct me if i am wrong but that is all timing or valves right? should have nothing to do with spark or fuel. almost like timing is out or valve isnt shutting all the way please tell me if any of you expierecned this:chat:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z6A8sTBX8w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z6A8sTBX8w[/ame]

 

[spyryder]

A compression or leakdown test should show if a valve isn't closing all the way.

 

[lonnibdd]

what i dont under stand is it still to lean with running the air box off shouldnt matter in this case or does it? There should be no fire in intakes if valves r closed should be all in cyclider ? it does seem to studdddddderrrr alot so maybe it is from having box off. Its one of those things that i am overthinking it wanting to be onething when it is probably another. Hate to have to take back to dealer and pay for them to do same as i am. as they said o we will toy with it well thats what i am doing. and honesty talking on here i have taught my dealer a number of things they only know what brp tells them to know sometimes. :hun:

 

[NancysToy]

Time to do a compression test and possibly a leakdown test. Looks like a possible mechanical issue. Outside cance it is ignition related. The timing is not adjustable on the Spyder, so this is a repair job, not a tuning issue.

 

[NancysToy]

Short stroke, high rpm engines usually have some valve overlap built into them. The intake will open towards the end of the exhaust stroke to to help initiate the cylinder fill process. For a brief period, both valves are open. The flash that you're seeing could be caused by the fresh air hitting the retreating hot exhaust gasses, and reigniting the retreating charge, the same effect as having a leaking exhaust. It's generally caused by a ''too lean'' mixture, which is noted for extreme temps and incomplete burns. It's easily cured with proper fuel delivery tuning.

Could also be pre-igniton, where the cylinder charge ignites before the spark plug fires, usually caused by carbon build up hot-spots, and again the culprit is often a too lean mixture raising surface temps too high. Can't really tell from your video, but this would usually backfire right out of the throttle body, and cause the engine to noticeably stumble. Can be usually cured with a fuel treatment program, if the contributing causes are eliminated.

As was suggested in the other thread, I'd take the o2 mod and JuiceBox out of the system to see if it runs any better. If so, then I would start again, only adding 1 item at a time until I found the source of the trouble.

Ignition timing on the Spyder is non adjustable, and probably not the cause.

As others have said, it could very well be a mechanical issue, but I'd rule out the accessories first, before looking into that avenue.

Good points, HDX. :agree: I had thought about pre-ignition caused by a real lean mixture and carbon hot spots. The video looked like it was limited to one cylinder, though. That is a bit odd unless there are mechanical/ignition issues, but the video could be deceiving. I agree that a good starting point would be to go back to square one, then make one move at a time. A compression check just to be sure the engine is relatively sound couldn't hurt, either. I re-read the posts, and I worry about the "plugs look like new" comment. They should show some color if the mixture is not horribly lean. I know it is a smog engine, but the JB and/or the O2 eliminator should have added some fuel. Make a change, try it, read the plugs...repeat. That is how engines are tuned, even when your hands are relatively tied.

 

[lonnibdd]

:chat: i really really appreciate all comments and suggestions. after reading posts i a going to my shop today and try few things. 1. makes sense that fuel is lean as there is no air box. 2. shut off jb box not disconnected YET. 3. Added 02 mod. so right now i am getting a :cus: load more air. as one of the upper posts said yes it is doing it in both intakes at first was more in front then back now visa versa. 4. I put new plugs in old ones only had 500 miles but as i was doing it figured do it all and verified gap was correct .030 book says between .027-.031 figured .030 as they will slighty open when hot. lets see im just trying to give as much info as possible for you guys i am going to take a couple better movies so you can see better whats doing it. if i can not get it to straighten up. again thanks sooooo muchhhhhh:2thumbs:

 

[Firefly]

For sure gonna be running way lean with the airbox removed-- not sure the JB or o2 mod can compensate that much.

I know from just changing from my custom airbox to a wide-open Evo race-intake- things got REAL lean real fast.

If you remove the JB and o2 and run with the air box off - my guess is the problem will be worse. Might want to go back to stock as much as possible and then move forward from there.

I know that the Evo instructions say to disconnect the battery when installing the o2 to 'reset the ECM' - and that the ECM needs a certain amount of time to 'learn' the new settings. There are mixed opinions on whether that really does anything or not. I personally have not found that it mattered just leaving the battery connected and that the results of adding the o2 mod were immediate.

Unfortunately some trial and error on your part is necessary. Probably best to go back to stock before having dealer investigate more....

Good luck! Hope you get her running good again.

 

[vtspyder]

Short stroke, high rpm engines usually have some valve overlap built into them. The intake will open towards the end of the exhaust stroke to to help initiate the cylinder fill process. For a brief period, both valves are open. The flash that you're seeing could be caused by the fresh air hitting the retreating hot exhaust gasses, and reigniting the retreating charge, the same effect as having a leaking exhaust. It's generally caused by a ''too lean'' mixture, which is noted for extreme temps and incomplete burns. It's easily cured with proper fuel delivery tuning.

Could also be pre-igniton, where the cylinder charge ignites before the spark plug fires, usually caused by carbon build up hot-spots, and again the culprit is often a too lean mixture raising surface temps too high. Can't really tell from your video, but this would usually backfire right out of the throttle body, and cause the engine to noticeably stumble. Can be usually cured with a fuel treatment program, if the contributing causes are eliminated.

As was suggested in the other thread, I'd take the o2 mod and JuiceBox out of the system to see if it runs any better. If so, then I would start again, only adding 1 item at a time until I found the source of the trouble.

Ignition timing on the Spyder is non adjustable, and probably not the cause.

As others have said, it could very well be a mechanical issue, but I'd rule out the accessories first, before looking into that avenue.

:agree: Backtrack all the way to the stock configuration. I know it's a pain. I might consider removing the battery terminal as well to dump the data stored in the ecu to get a fresh startup with the stock config'.. Others here may not think that's a good idea as it might wipe out the codes. But, then again, with it running like that it might throw the codes if any right away. Not sure. Good luck.:dontknow:

 

[lonnibdd]

OK After a long afternoon of messing around I tried stock setup with the tb pipes on. same I cleaned the throttle body and actually it seemed to help ALOT?????? It is not firing off in the intakes nearly as much. But still running alittle rough at 2500 rpms. So put just O2 mod on same, added Jb box and messed with setting 5 to turn on fuel alittle sooner and if you watch the video about 37-42 seconds you'll really hear it pop maybe some will say i am being to anal about it? also I partially covered air intake to simulate air box and thought was little better then just start doing it again. THinking about checking vavle clearence next as top side of valves have alot of carbon on them but not the stems? what do ya think?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEgelAgLn-U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEgelAgLn-U[/ame]

 

[Firefly]

OK After a long afternoon of messing around I tried stock setup with the tb pipes on. same I cleaned the throttle body and actually it seemed to help ALOT?????? It is not firing off in the intakes nearly as much. But still running alittle rough at 2500 rpms. So put just O2 mod on same, added Jb box and messed with setting 5 to turn on fuel alittle sooner and if you watch the video about 37-42 seconds you'll really hear it pop maybe some will say i am being to anal about it? also I partially covered air intake to simulate air box and thought was little better then just start doing it again. THinking about checking vavle clearence next as top side of valves have alot of carbon on them but not the stems? what do ya think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEgelAgLn-U

Sounds pretty normal to me. Are you letting it warm up to 2 bars before doing your testing? I'd throw her back together and do a real-road test....:thumbup:

 

[NancysToy]

Sounds pretty decent to me. There was a bit of a stumble a couple of times, but that may be cured by the airbox/filter, or be able to be further tuned out with the JB. It may not even occur during normal ops. Revving repeatedly and quickly like that, sets up waves in the intake, which can cause stumbling. Rev it and let it settle down for a better indication, but as HDX said, revving in neutral without a load really proves nothing. Get the box on it and hit the streets.

 

[Campverdefela]

I'm agreeing with the others here that the last vid did not sound that bad. I would put it back together, run it and play with the JB settings. Remember to keep setttings 5 &6 about two settings different and also with each change you make give the computer a few runs to make a little re-adjustment. My settings are 1-no set., 2-3, 3-2.5, 4-3, 5-.5, 6-2.5 for what its worth....

 

[lonnibdd]

all great info if it werent flash flooding I would so I am heading back over today to put back together and wait till mother nature works with me.

HDX- yes sir tried all combos like i said after cleaning intake does not NEARLY miss as much and i woul agree letting it settle back down.
I have 11,600somthing miles on it so i am gonna do the vavle check while i have it apart myself anyone heard of JB Racing in Springfield Pa, well his race shops build from ground up and after talking with him he has adjusted many valves on fuel injected motors of all kinds and said no sweat get him the numbers and we'll do it at my place while torn down will let all know how it goes. gonna print abunch of pages off my midwest manual and giddy up! wish me luck:dontknow:opcorn:

 

[Firefly]

all great info if it werent flash flooding I would so I am heading back over today to put back together and wait till mother nature works with me.

HDX- yes sir tried all combos like i said after cleaning intake does not NEARLY miss as much and i woul agree letting it settle back down.
I have 11,600somthing miles on it so i am gonna do the vavle check while i have it apart myself anyone heard of JB Racing in Springfield Pa, well his race shops build from ground up and after talking with him he has adjusted many valves on fuel injected motors of all kinds and said no sweat get him the numbers and we'll do it at my place while torn down will let all know how it goes. gonna print abunch of pages off my midwest manual and giddy up! wish me luck:dontknow:opcorn:

Shims listed here:
http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/hondaeasttoledo/Canam_OEM/canammc.asp?Type=13&A=4&B=7

I thought someone said you could order a 'shim kit' with various shims in it for a *reasonable* price-- but I don't seem em on there. Maybe order thru Aprilla.

 

[lonnibdd]

Well another long day of playing and valves were fine in tolerances listed in book. So i put the bike back togther as far as air box and took for a ride with air box on, jb,02 mod and ran like total :cus: worse than ever before. So after talking with a buddy of mine as i mentioned earlier. His good pal is mechanic of the year Darren Thomas for snap bros. racing and come to find out there part of team bpr. So i was talking to him and he put a call into brp see what they say. In the mean time I went back to totally stock all hoses, sensors, all but pipe and would have done that 2 but did not have a new gasket so anyhows I went for a ride and seemed MUCH BETTER BETTER BETTER. Running alittle lean as idle did not drop as fast and was up around 1600 but I came back in and added 02 mod and started up seems ok but was raining again so i didnt get to take it back out. I am leaning towards jb was bad ??? Has ran like this since I got the bike just finally got sick of it and tore into it. I guess time will tell. Covers came out rather easily i thought.:2thumbs:

 

[lonnibdd]

o btw it was runnin rough enough to trip check engine light first run unhooked batter during tear down and no code so

 

[Firefly]

Well another long day of playing and valves were fine in tolerances listed in book. So i put the bike back togther as far as air box and took for a ride with air box on, jb,02 mod and ran like total :cus: worse than ever before. So after talking with a buddy of mine as i mentioned earlier. His good pal is mechanic of the year Darren Thomas for snap bros. racing and come to find out there part of team bpr. So i was talking to him and he put a call into brp see what they say. In the mean time I went back to totally stock all hoses, sensors, all but pipe and would have done that 2 but did not have a new gasket so anyhows I went for a ride and seemed MUCH BETTER BETTER BETTER. Running alittle lean as idle did not drop as fast and was up around 1600 but I came back in and added 02 mod and started up seems ok but was raining again so i didnt get to take it back out. I am leaning towards jb was bad ??? Has ran like this since I got the bike just finally got sick of it and tore into it. I guess time will tell. Covers came out rather easily i thought.:2thumbs:

Sounds like you're narrowing it down a bit. If you're JB isn't covered under warranty-- maybe upgrade to the JB pro --- or a power commander with the auto-tune setup. More $$$ I know -- but Might really be worth it.

The o2 mod eliminates the hesitation when the ECU is relying on feedback from the O2 sensor (Closed Loop). When the ECU goes into Open Loop (at WOT), it stops paying attention to the O2 and that is were the JB can do its work - thus you can cover both operation modes (CL and OL).

The ECU looks for a certain voltage level from the TPS (throttle position sensor) to determine when to change into open loop mode---you might be able to trick it into staying in closed loop by keeping the TPS input voltage below a certain point using a zener diode across the TPS signal and ground wires.

I've been wanting to try this as it would be a really easy mod -- maybe next rainy day here I'll give her a shot and let you know the results.

Glad you're making *some* progress.

 

[lonnibdd]

HDX - Tried settings in earlier post and messed around from there. I trully beilieve it was the jb as i had problems from day one with it I have owned the bike for like13-14 months now and like i said no matter what i did to the juice box nothing even turning it to .5 1-3. The dealer everytime i would take it to them they would say seems fine needs alittle tunning but would never attempt to tune it even at my request said have to leave it i am 1-1/2 which isint crazy or nothing but with my prostetic leg they wont give me a loner, understandable, but anyways by taking the jb out of the loop 'ie' unhooking all connections seemed to make BIG differance. AGAIN to all fellow riders I feel very blessed to have people that take there time out to give :chat: . Gonna go put her back together and away i will go. one thing if I am running lean and bike is performing better than before is it going to hurt anything while i am riding to test out awhile. I understand what happens when to lean dont get me wrong but if bike is running decent then ? I guess I am alittle worried from all posts that ruining dual slip ons and bone stock is not good, On other hand some say ecu should have the capabilitys to compsensate?????:dontknow:


firefly thanks for input but i'm not sure i want to start messing with that stuff i am pretty mechanically inclined if i am shown or study somthing i get it but the electronics arent as much my fortay but i am interested how you make out.

 

[Firefly]

Open loop operation would be determined by a combination of rpm, throttle position, and manifold absolute pressure. Skewing just the throttle position input, (which would probably have unintended consequences on idle and other ECM operation) wouldn't shift the open loop operation very much.

Why would one want to stay in closed loop anyhow? We know that BRP programmed it for 14.7:1 or so, way too lean for performance, not to mention increased heat and detonation. It'd be better to find a way to eliminate the narrow band closed loop completely.

Much easier and more accurate to alter the output from the ECM, than try to manipulate the inputs, anyway.

Maybe-- but a diode only costs .99 :thumbup:------ easy way to stay in CL and let the o2 fake the system into adding more fuel. Certainly not the mod for everyone-- and could kill MPG big time-- but could work. Been done on other vehicles and made noticeable difference for the low cost of .99.

Shouldn't mess with idle .With the o2 mod in place the bike no longer runs lean while in CL - a richer mix is what we're after for the most part- so keeping it in CL would add more fuel all the time as directed by the fake o2 readings. You would not want to stay in CL without running the o2 mod.

Ideally the PC with auto-tune would be awesome-- but @ $1,000+ pretty expensive.

Don't like it -- don't do it.
Wasn't looking for your input or 'approval' anyway....

 

[Firefly]

Don't like it - don't do it. Hasn't been done or tested on Spyder - but works on many other vehicles.

Someone on Ebay does sell a cheapo kit to modify the air temp input - which fools the system to run rich too.

Many options. Don't really care what you think of them.

Your opinions on my posts are not needed or wanted. You need to find a new hobby besides stalking me out here.....:roflblack:

Look --- SQUIRREL------