No compression

[Lively]

@Freddy i forgot that step unfortunately

A piece that was also broken: Camshaft Bearing Cap, is not replaceable as they dont have a part number or a price on any site i have searched. But i found a rear head off of a running bike on ebay fully intact so i purchased that, which will infact save me some money on valves if they check out good at the machine shop.

So now that i have found the problem. What do you think could have caused this so i can prevent it from happening to me as well. Is timing the only thing? Timing will be hard for me as ive never messed with timing yet, learning as i go on some stuff. How would it have got out of timing that bad for that to have happened as the chain isnt snapped and i highly doubt the previous owner adjusted the timing or anything. This guy literally stripped every other body bolt but not to the point where i couldnt get it out thank god.

 

[Freddy]

Camshaft cap broken eh?!?! Incredible. It sounds like he might have attempted a valve adjustment and got it all wrong, which is about all that would explain the damage. The cam bearing caps and head come as one piece as they are made and machined as a 1 piece item at the factory, so ensure the 'new' head comes with it's mating caps. Timing & valve check/adjust is rather technical on these engines so you may need some expert help - using the FSM (factory service manual). The other cam cover will need to be removed to check cam time obviously upon reassembly. The front head doesn't have a balance shaft like the rear one - perhaps that item was the cause of his timing disaster.

 

[PMK]

Seeing the spalled bucket, my first thought was no oil...but the cam bearings look ok, so who knows.

Hope I am wrong, but suspect there is more happening here than is apparent. Hope it is cost effective in the end.

 

[Haikanko]

Seeing the spalled bucket, my first thought was no oil...

Hope I am wrong, but suspect there is more happening here than is apparent. Hope it is cost effective in the end.

Yep that was my thought also - I would remove the front cam cover and check the buckets etc.
Check the oil guides for bits of metal.
Rip the oil filter apart and again check for metal.
Oil pump failure or run very low on oil. Do you history on when oil was changed?

The metal bits must have gone some where hopefully not into the bearings etc.

 

[bayoubill]

i buy and fix a lot of 4 wheelers to re-sell, i see this a lot, its usually run low on oil or a timing chain or gear problem that causes it.

 

[PMK]

i buy and fix a lot of 4 wheelers to re-sell, i see this a lot, its usually run low on oil or a timing chain or gear problem that causes it.

And these engines are known to use a bit of oil between oil changes. Again, hopefully this is an easy fix and low cost.

 

[bayoubill]

be sure to check piston pin to rod fit and rod to crank fit

 

[Lively]

Cam shafts seem okey, however the used head i ordered on ebay is complete so it will have everything.

@freddy i was able to retrieve the Tensioner!
@Haikanko The oil was pretty low when i got it, none what so ever in the tank.
@navydad piston looks good after cleaning it, i only see one spot with a little scarring but i believe its usable? Thoughts anyone?

As for metal flakes i put my magnet in the oil that i could access from the piston area and it didnt pull up any flakes. I will inspect the filter later though as well.

Head arrives Thursday.

 

[bayoubill]

as i said in the post above your last be sure to check piston pin to rod and rod bottom end, especially the piston pin end of the rod, a lot of times if they are run low on oil the piston end of the rod will be shot where the pin goes through.

 

[JoshHefnerX]

Not sure what this engine uses for cam chain tension but I'd prob consider replacing that assy, as well as the chain. You're in there, and know that something went bad..

 

[Freddy]

Good you were able to retrieve the tensioner Lively. I would reuse the piston now having seen it cleaned up. The contact between it and the valve would not have caused any further damage lower down in my experience with similar engines running 'shell' bearings (as distinct from roller bearings) but check, as bayoubill suggests. As it was low on oil, an inspection of the oil filter may shed more light on the other damaged tho a magnet will be of little use as any metal would most likely be non-magnetic ie soft bearing metal or aluminium. No doubt you've drained the remainder of the oil from the crankcase - what did you see in there? It will be most helpful to know. But it's a big worry that there was none in the tank - I wonder it if had been drained when the previous owner or dealer was 'looking into it.'

Importantly, have you been able to identify a probably cause of the failure - or is it all a bit of a mess? I've seen similar head/cam damage, but not on a Spyder engine.

 

[Peter Aawen]

.......

MOST Importantly, have you been able to identify a probable cause of the failure - or is it all a bit of a mess? I have seen similar damage, but not on a Spyder engine.

Fixed that Bolded/Italicised bit for you Freddy! :thumbup:

Maybe it's just me, but this damage &/or the sequence of events that could've created it is sounding more'n more just a little 'odd'?! :dontknow:

The damage shown seems to be a bit of an odd thing just to have happened out of the blue, at least with as it presents so far, having little indications of potential causes evident, like no real signs being run for long without oil or of the engine having significant timing issues... What with the minimal piston/valve contact damage & the apparent lack of oil, I can't help but think that possibly someone (the previous owner?? a dodgy dealer tech?? :dontknow: ) started to work on the undamaged engine (to do what? a valve adjust maybe?) but messed up (something?) early in the piece & instead of continuing, tried to hide whatever it was they'd started/messed up & simply passed the whole thing on as quick as you'd pass on a ticking brown paper wrapped bundle found in an Irish Pub during The Troubles!? :shocked:

Or is that just me being a suspicious barsteward with an overly cynical view on life?

 

[Lively]

Camshaft cap broken eh?!?! Incredible. It sounds like he might have attempted a valve adjustment and got it all wrong, which is about all that would explain the damage.

@peter aawen, i think freddys quote seems to be the most likely. because when i looked at the Cam cap again today when cleaning the garage up and organizing, i noticed cracks in 2 more spots that were sure to brake very soon.

@Bayoubill, I will inspect. I hope they are fine!!! Really wish it were just headgaskets at this point... would already be nearly done.

 

[pegasus1300]

Lively when you go to putting that engine back together you can use an appropriate sized hose clamp to compress the rings, esp the oil ring. When you get the cylinder down over the rings you can then completely open up the hose clamp to remove it and your rings will be safe in the cylinder. Good luck on the rebuild, you seem to have been going along just fine so far.

 

[Freddy]

opcorn:

 

[Lively]

Lively when you go to putting that engine back together you can use an appropriate sized hose clamp to compress the rings

Thanks @pegasus1300 that trick saved me some money and worked like a charm.

UPDATE: Sorry everyone i took a pretty long break away from the bike to handle some other things just got back to working on it last weekend and now mechanically shes all back together. Im getting 150PSI from that cylinder now. Currently charging the batter crossing my fingers it still works. Also crossing my fingers that the bike itself works now haha. I did find ALOT of metal in the filter and filter housing which i assume came from the stuck valves and cam bearings.

What was done: Replaced piston rings, Spark plugs, used Cylinder head + cam cap w/everything, all gaskets, oil + filter, couple hoses, couple other things im sure.

Wish me luck that it fires up tomorrow with no issues haha.

 

[Mikey]

We are all crossing our fingers for you!!! Hope everything runs as should!!:2thumbs:ray:

 

[PMK]

Thanks @pegasus1300 that trick saved me some money and worked like a charm.

UPDATE: Sorry everyone i took a pretty long break away from the bike to handle some other things just got back to working on it last weekend and now mechanically shes all back together. Im getting 150PSI from that cylinder now. Currently charging the batter crossing my fingers it still works. Also crossing my fingers that the bike itself works now haha. I did find ALOT of metal in the filter and filter housing which i assume came from the stuck valves and cam bearings.

What was done: Replaced piston rings, Spark plugs, used Cylinder head + cam cap w/everything, all gaskets, oil + filter, couple hoses, couple other things im sure.

Wish me luck that it fires up tomorrow with no issues haha.

Curious, was the metal bright shiny aluminum, darker colored like copper or bronze, or shiny and magnetic like steel? Those parameters can give insight into where the metal in the filter possibly came from.

 

[Lively]

Curious, was the metal bright shiny aluminum, darker colored like copper or bronze, or shiny and magnetic like steel? Those parameters can give insight into where the metal in the filter possibly came from.

Very shiny, part of it was clumped together but it was clumped in the aluminum housing so id assume non-magnetic but i didnt check for magnetism unfortunately.

Starts but only on one cylinder.... not the cylinder i repaired either, the untouched one. Im getting spark, still have 150 psi, and when i pulled the plug it did smell like fuel however it was dry.... IDEAS?

Edit: So i pulled both small hoses what i believe are the fuel hoses the go to the bottom side of the throttle body, no fuel when starting... so now im wondering why the fuel is getting to one and not the other. I checked the injector the way my grandpa taught me when he was still around and put a flat head to the injector/ear and listen for the clicks and they sounded good. So im kinda stuck and running around like a chicken with my head cut off till i figure it out or get some advise that works haha.

 

[bayoubill]

did you double check the timing?
just saw your edit with no gas so it wouldn't be timing