New Toy Hauler for Darth & Psycho

[Phil]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm investigating renting a nice truck for the trip to Spyderfest. And we'll reevaluate after that.

I'm concerned. Concerned that manufacturers would rate a vehile like the Santa Fe so close to a limit so that if you operate it at or near that rating, it would harm the vehicle. IF that is the case, they should down rate the towing capacity, or declare that the owner should not use it at or near the rated limits. I get the bad economics of doing something like that, but I have to believe that those buying a vehicle with a factory towing package is a small subset thus the economic impact to de-rate would be low.

Then, are they off on all other specs like stopping distance, HP, etc? Isn't this something regulated like declared MPG vs real MPG made big news years ago and the evaluation method was changed?

Things that make me go.... hummmmmmm.....

Oh.... yes the towing package includes a larger radiator, more powerful fans, transmission cooler, etc.

 

[Retired 2012]

Another thing most tow packages will also include a bigger radiator and a oil cooler. Some even have a tow mode, which allow the transmission to
shift at different rpms then when not in tow mode. Better shocks (air-adjustable) may also be included in the package. Hope you consider a different vehicle, one that has these things, which allow it a higher tow rating.
Great looking trailer, hope you enjoy it for many years to come.

 

[bscrive]

I have a Santa Fe V6 and I would never tow a trailer this large. The most I would ever go is a 6x12 with my wife's STL in it. Even at that I think I am pushing it. I have been trailering boats and trailers for close to 30 year and I would never haul that trailer with the two Spyders with anything less than a truck. If you have to stop quick and the roads are wet, the trailer will push you. My buddy had a Ford Bronco with a 18' Ranger Bass boat (3500lbs), and he had to come on to his breaks to stop for a light. The trailer brakes locked up on the wet pavement and pushed his truck into the intersection and was hit by another car. Now, he only tows with a large truck that is way over what he really needs. Your vehicle is not made for that trailer and the guy that sold it to you should know better.

 

[MisterP]

"The guy that sold it to you should have known better"

The seller of a trailer cannot be held responsible for how a buyer uses it. If they could we would be mired in far more lawsuits than we already are.

The trailer dealer was responsible for ensuring that the equipment was road-worthy at the time of sale. How it is used and maintained after is out of their control.

Unless the OP plans to use his trailer on a weekly basis to tow his two Spyders, the most cost-effective answer may be to rent a Ford F-150 or equivalent for the occasional trip. Use the Hyundai to tow the trailer when picking up stuff at the hardware.

 

[MarkLawson]

...One suggestion - consider turning off the Hyundai overdrive if you can. I have a button on the end of the shifter for the Ford Expedition I own. I have learned to not use overdrive, and at 64 mph I tow, the Ford is running about 2300 rpm. It only shifts down on overpasses here in FL, which cuts down on the wear and tear on the transmission. Offering that FWIW.

Excellent suggestion. My Tundra manual recommends both turning off the OD to reduce shifting of the transmission and not using cruise control while towing. The engine will run at a higher RPM, but will save some wear and tear on the transmission.

Like you Phil, I get 8.5-9 MPG while towing. It doesn't get used as often as it did when gas was half the price it is now.

Check the Santa Fe manual again on the max towing. Does it require a load leveling hitch system to get that max, both in towing and tongue weight? My Tundra does, which I have. My trailer is 2800# empty and 7000# gross. To tow the gross, I must use the load leveling hitch system.

If you'd like, give me a shout this evening and we can talk.

 

[arntufun]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm investigating renting a nice truck for the trip to Spyderfest. And we'll reevaluate after that.

I'm concerned. Concerned that manufacturers would rate a vehile like the Santa Fe so close to a limit so that if you operate it at or near that rating, it would harm the vehicle. IF that is the case, they should down rate the towing capacity, or declare that the owner should not use it at or near the rated limits. I get the bad economics of doing something like that, but I have to believe that those buying a vehicle with a factory towing package is a small subset thus the economic impact to de-rate would be low.

Then, are they off on all other specs like stopping distance, HP, etc? Isn't this something regulated like declared MPG vs real MPG made big news years ago and the evaluation method was changed?

Things that make me go.... hummmmmmm.....

Oh.... yes the towing package includes a larger radiator, more powerful fans, transmission cooler, etc.

Don't let these folks get you down. :lecturef_smilie:

Get a brake controller and drive the dam thing. You will be fine........ :thumbup:



My Toyota is rated for towing 10k pounds......... My Toyota towed 250k pounds. Enough said about this weight limit nonsense !!!!!!!! :roflblack:

 

[JKMSPYDER]

I have a great idea! Forget the toy hauler and ride your Spyders to your vacation spots! You and Bobbie both have RT's and trailers. Isn't riding the open roads on Spyders what it is all about? I have a trailer for my ST but only use it to haul my Spyder to the dealer if it won't run or if it haas to be left there for more than a day. Just my 2 cents.

 

[sduskin]

definately get a load leveler

I speak from personal experience. I have hauled many many loads of horses, hay, and such all over the south and central parts of the U.S. And I have learned from (most of) my many mistakes. <knock on wood> I never had a crash. I had a few close calls, though.

You want to keep your vehicle weight as close to balanced over its own axles as possible. If you don't, you will have braking issues, traction issues, control issues, tires getting too hot in the rear, your lights shining too high to be effective on the roadway, etc. So get a load leveler for your trailer tongue. For your spyders and other mass in the trailer, try to have the weight distributed as close to the axles as possible. Maybe 1st spyder back end first and 2nd spyder front in first. This should keep the majority of the mass closest to the load bearing axles. Check, double check and triple check any tie-down connections. You don't want a hard brake to cause your loads to shift and cause issues.

Check your braking system. Your vehicle is probably ABS. Check to see if your electric trailer brakes are actuated like the ABS or if they are constant force. If your system is a mix, your ABS might have issues should you have to brake hard.

Remember the trailer tracks INSIDE any curve you take with your vehicle. LOL also learned the hard way when whacking trees in park areas or camp grounds.

Have fun! Looks like a great setup!

 

[jaherbst]

Don't let these folks get you down. :lecturef_smilie:

Get a brake controller and drive the dam thing. You will be fine........ :thumbup:



My Toyota is rated for towing 10k pounds......... My Toyota towed 250k pounds. Enough said about this weight limit nonsense !!!!!!!! :roflblack:

Yea, but not on the freeway at 75 MPH. Don't be fooled by these outrageous advertisements. Some of us are speaking from hundreds of thousands of miles pulling trailers.

Jack

 

[MisterP]

I have a great idea! Forget the toy hauler and ride your Spyders to your vacation spots! You and Bobbie both have RT's and trailers. Isn't riding the open roads on Spyders what it is all about? I have a trailer for my ST but only use it to haul my Spyder to the dealer if it won't run or if it haas to be left there for more than a day. Just my 2 cents.

I have an idea...don't judge why people might need to trailer any motorcycle. There may be reasons you know nothing about.

Feel fortunate that you can ride whenever and however long you wish. We don't all have that option.

Cheers.

 

[Retired 2012]

The weight distribution system is a great Idea, my Dad used one for years while towing a large camping trailer with a big old car at first, then switched to a Chevy Suburban in 1976. Self leveling shocks or adjustable air shocks helped, too

I really like your camera set up. Thanks for sharing the photos, too.

Enjoy your trailer and your spyders.....

 

[Phil]

Thanks again for all of the comments and help.

Some random answers and comments:

1. Regarding the factory towing package on the Santa Fe: I'm not really sure if it is load leveling, but from watching it as we lowered the trailer on to the ball, it seemed to settle fairly level rather than dipping down in the back. Anecdotal, I know, and not factual.

2. I did add a brake controller. It is proportional using accelerometers to vary the braking level. It worked great coming from Indy to Tyler, in the rain.

3. I just got a rental price from our Toyota dealer on a really nice Tundra for the trip to SF. Not as terrible as I thought. I also just went to the dealer and sat in the truck. The Tundra shows it is good for 6,400 to 10,500 lbs. The rental truck has the 7 way round power jack, but does NOT come with a brake controller. But my previous question stands about ratings..... It sure sounds like the SAE J2807 ratings for towing capacity were not applied by Hyundai to the Santa Fe ratings from what the majority are saying!! That I do not like. I bought a vehicle that claimed 5000# and I expected that it would safely tow that (with the electric brakes on the trailer). I fully understand, not at 75mph like I was running it at first.

4. When I was in OD, the engine was not laboring at all. MOST of the time I hovered in the 3500 RPM world (not sure of the gear). The OD was very level to down hill. There is not an OD override switch that I can see. My point of that comment was that I feel confident in the power of the Santa Fe to pull the trailer... empty. And... I'll be testing it loaded to see that condition. That test will only be around town and on a couple of nearby highways, getting to 65 on hills.

5. Our Santa Fe is ABS. The trailer is not.

6. I AM THE guy that decided on the vehicle, the trailer and what load it would be carrying. No salesman sold a bill of goods. It was MY calculations and decision. All were based on the ratings of the Santa Fe (GVWR and towing capacity). I'm now learning that those Hyundai published figures are not valid so my results are flawed.

7. Why are we electing to trailer and not ryde? There is a really sound and good reason. Several, in fact. We have ridden every year to SF except the first when I flew in and rented a car. We LOVE ryding. This year we are having a VERY special Lumilor / Dark Side Scientific coating added with a Sue Hopper painting on the frunk, fog light shrouds and the saddle bags. This will be the FIRST Spyder in the world to have this and we are excited to unveil it at SF2015. There is a huge investment. As well, as of Feb 2015, I am a part owner in Darkside Scientific. We will be displaying Bobbie's bike (Psycho) at Sue Hopper's booth in the vendor hall. We will also be hauling both bikes to more shows in 2016 for Dark Side Scientific. All of that (plus more) directed me to getting the enclosed hauler.

Thanks again for input....

 

[Marker]

Nice trailer and camera set up. :thumbup::firstplace:

 

[Kwalsh]

Sorry to stir up such a pooh storm, just that I have a 3 place sled trailer that looks just a little bit bigger and it beats the hell out of my suburban going up and down hills.
I didn't want you to have any problems with such a nice trailer and your spiders. I would take up the offer to borrow a heavier truck and not have to worry about it so you can enjoy your vacation

 

[spyder-dude]

Phil,

i have had many trailers and vehicles in my last 20 years.

I have the 2014 Santa Fe Limited with an all aluminum 6x12 trailer (that weighs 990lbs dry) that I did haul my 2013 STS with one time. It did all right but would never attempt to haul even 1000lbs more with my setup.

I would be be real careful hauling 2 RT's with your heavier trailer trailer with the Santa Fe. 1 RT with that trailer would be pushing the Santa Fe's limit.

And the comments about if you were ever in an accident is correct that the insurance company could deny any coverage what so ever.

 

[Phil]

Phil,

i have had many trailers and vehicles in my last 20 years.

I have the 2014 Santa Fe Limited with an all aluminum 6x12 trailer (that weighs 990lbs dry) that I did haul my 2013 STS with one time. It did all right but would never attempt to haul even 1000lbs more with my setup.

I would be be real careful hauling 2 RT's with your heavier trailer trailer with the Santa Fe. 1 RT with that trailer would be pushing the Santa Fe's limit.

And the comments about if you were ever in an accident is correct that the insurance company could deny any coverage what so ever.

So... what IS the criteria that insurance companies would use if I'm under all of the rated limits, if there was an accident? I'm asking an academic question to the masses. It goes back to my point of the manufacturers putting a RATED TOWING LIMIT on a vehicle that the majority are saying is wrong (my words). I FULLY understand the logic, but it is the numbers and facts I don't understand.

I have an office building. The Maximum 'ever in the future' expected constant electrical load was to be 150kw. We installed a 200kw generator. Ends up, with all of our LED lighting and other conservation, right now, we are pulling 74kw max. Some might agree that the 200kw generator will never wear out being tasked so low. But every time I fire it up for a test (1x/wk) it costs me $100 and the cost of the larger than needed gen was $120k. So... was I smart or not so smart to over size the generator? Rhetorical question to be sure. I see the similar discussion on the Santa Fe & trailer. My wife drives the Santa Fe EVERY day for work. I expect we will pull the trailer 2-4x/yr within 150mi of our home, and I will likely use the Santa Fe. When we go to Colorado, NC, MO, FL, etc..... we will rent a truck to pull.


I HAVE decided to rent the Tundra or some other large truck for the trip to SF. I'm REALLY hoping to rent one with an electric brake controller, but that doesn't seem to be common on stock vehicles that are rent-able.

Thanks for everyone's kind comments and help. see you at SF! The trailer will be at the Holiday Inn

 

[jaherbst]

So... what IS the criteria that insurance companies would use if I'm under all of the rated limits, if there was an accident? I'm asking an academic question to the masses. It goes back to my point of the manufacturers putting a RATED TOWING LIMIT on a vehicle that the majority are saying is wrong (my words). I FULLY understand the logic, but it is the numbers and facts I don't understand.

I have an office building. The Maximum 'ever in the future' expected constant electrical load was to be 150kw. We installed a 200kw generator. Ends up, with all of our LED lighting and other conservation, right now, we are pulling 74kw max. Some might agree that the 200kw generator will never wear out being tasked so low. But every time I fire it up for a test (1x/wk) it costs me $100 and the cost of the larger than needed gen was $120k. So... was I smart or not so smart to over size the generator? Rhetorical question to be sure. I see the similar discussion on the Santa Fe & trailer. My wife drives the Santa Fe EVERY day for work. I expect we will pull the trailer 2-4x/yr within 150mi of our home, and I will likely use the Santa Fe. When we go to Colorado, NC, MO, FL, etc..... we will rent a truck to pull.


I HAVE decided to rent the Tundra or some other large truck for the trip to SF. I'm REALLY hoping to rent one with an electric brake controller, but that doesn't seem to be common on stock vehicles that are rent-able.

Thanks for everyone's kind comments and help. see you at SF! The trailer will be at the Holiday Inn

Hi Phil, sorry we have all burst your bubble but most of us have learned the hard way through the years. I would highly recommend the Ford F-150 with
eco-Boost. (Twin Turbo's) With the tow package it comes with the brake controller built into the system, has twin turbo's and three radiators. Rated to 11,000 pounds of tow. (don't believe it) My heaviest trailer now with the Spyder aboard is 7500#. Have done all the major passes in Colorado with ease and the long pass east of Yosemite. 10-11 MPG with this trailer, 12-13 MPH with 7X12 Look Vision and Spyder loaded. No trailer it gets 18 MPG. I tried the Yukon Denali with 3:55 rear end and 6.2 liter V-8 on the big trailer and it failed miserably. Transmission and engine were both overheating. Tow capacity on it was 8500#. Rear end is important in choosing a tow vehicle. 3:75 would be recommended. It is a trade off between gas mileage and pulling power.

We will talk about this over a cold Beer at the Holiday. My best tow vehicle ever was a large Diesel Pusher with a 500 HP engine. ( 7 MPG ):yikes:

Jack

Jack

 

[MisterP]

So... what IS the criteria that insurance companies would use if I'm under all of the rated limits, if there was an accident? I'm asking an academic question to the masses. It goes back to my point of the manufacturers putting a RATED TOWING LIMIT on a vehicle that the majority are saying is wrong (my words). I FULLY understand the logic, but it is the numbers and facts I don't understand.

I have an office building. The Maximum 'ever in the future' expected constant electrical load was to be 150kw. We installed a 200kw generator. Ends up, with all of our LED lighting and other conservation, right now, we are pulling 74kw max. Some might agree that the 200kw generator will never wear out being tasked so low. But every time I fire it up for a test (1x/wk) it costs me $100 and the cost of the larger than needed gen was $120k. So... was I smart or not so smart to over size the generator? Rhetorical question to be sure. I see the similar discussion on the Santa Fe & trailer. My wife drives the Santa Fe EVERY day for work. I expect we will pull the trailer 2-4x/yr within 150mi of our home, and I will likely use the Santa Fe. When we go to Colorado, NC, MO, FL, etc..... we will rent a truck to pull.


I HAVE decided to rent the Tundra or some other large truck for the trip to SF. I'm REALLY hoping to rent one with an electric brake controller, but that doesn't seem to be common on stock vehicles that are rent-able.

Thanks for everyone's kind comments and help. see you at SF! The trailer will be at the Holiday Inn

Don't get frustrated, Phil. No one can predict the behavior of any insurance underwriter in a claim. But, our point was to keep them from having any ammunition to reject the claim. Also, towing in excess of any rated vehicle can expose the owner to civil liability. It's not that it will ever happen, and many people tow many thousands of miles with the wrong vehicles.

But I know a case on the Bay Bridge outside of Baltimore MD where a trailer owner was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. A description can be found at http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-12-15/news/0712141018_1_trailer-crashes-runaway

Granted, the trailer owner was obviously negligent, but what we have been discussing in this thread is also open to interpretation.

As far as renting a truck without a brake controller, E-Trailer sells plug and play harnesses for a lot of different vehicles. Go there, find the truck model you intend to rent, and pay the $20 or so for the harness. Make sure it is compatible with your brake controller. Plug it in for your trip, and stick the controller on the lower dash with heavy duty Velcro. Remove it when the trip is done.

 

[revjvegas]

OK.

But when are you going to put LEDs on it?

 

[Phil]

Thanks Jack & Mr. P.

I'll look into a Ford 150 rental. The Tundra has the right 7 way plug, rated at 10,500#, except... it is lacking the the controller. I have a little time yet. I may ask the Toyota dealer (who supplies the rental) about them adding a controller vs me doing a temporary. The under dash bit is simple, but adding the wiring from the battery to the 7way plug on a rental might be the issue.

My frustration is not with people that have accidents or tear up vehicles that are loaded OVER their rated loads. That's stupid. And if I were going to try to pull over 5000# with the Santa Fe, I SHOULD have my head examined. My frustration is that they DO rate the Santa Fe at 5000# and me pulling 4700# would be fodder for an insurance company. I DO get that I want to say back from the line. I DO get that insurance companies and others can sue anyone over anything. Grrrrr.....

Thanks again all.....