New to me GS wont start....

[gsjock]

I am new here so thanks for the help in advance! I just bought my wife a 2009 GS a few of days ago. The first couple of days she put over 200 miles on it, but went to start it this morn and it took a lot of cranking to finally get it started. We went to eat at a Sonic about thirty miles away, shut it off and it started hard again, when it finally did start, it ran on one cylinder for about 10 seconds then cleared up. We arrive back at the homestead, shut it down, and it fires back up perfectly. I do this a couple times with no problems, I then let the bike sit for about 45 minutes and it starts hard again and will only run on one cylinder and will not clear up. I pulled the plug wire off of the back cylinder while it was running and nothing changed. I then shut it down and stuck a timing light on that cylinders' wire and it was firing. (I also double checked this by removing the plug and watching it fire while cranking) I then performed a cyl. leak down check... results were 79/80. I had to then leave for a few hours and when I returned back to the garage, it would not start at all. I pulled both the front and back plugs and they were dry. (on a side note the front plug is a mother$^&*@#). I then pulled the fuel filter and there is very little restriction if any at all, turned the key on and fuel pressure seems good. (I will have to bring home a FPT tomorrow to put exact numbers up) I then pulled the airbox top off of it and looked into both throttle bodies and they were both dry, dumped a little fuel on top of the bodies, hit the starter and it popped off and ran like a new one, I mean, not a single miss, stutter, or backfire, then I shut it down and it started back up perfectly for at least three consecutive attempts. I then let it sit for another 45 min. and I am back to square 1... So I check battery voltage... 12.8 resting and 11.8 cranking but that is after cranking a while and doing some more KO troubleshooting so I am sure it is not a voltage issue either. It is showing no active codes and has not ever pushed a check engine indication since these issues started. I am now leaning towards fuel pressure regulator, but would appreciate any other ideas/help. I do not have BUDS but think I have found one to borrow but not until the weekend. I will update this with what I find to help others who may have similar issues.

 

[Bob Denman]

:welcome:
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles with a new (to you) bike...
For any magic to happen: you need fuel and spark: at just the right time! :thumbup:
Since your plugs were dry; it seems that the fuel part of the equation is suspect. :shocked:
But Mike is right: get some decent plugwires for it anyway!

Good luck; please let us know how this turns out!

 

[Lastchance]

Sounds like the plugs are getting fouled as you try to start it then clear after running, next time it sits 45 min try cracking the throttle open a bit and see if it starts any easier.

 

[Bob Denman]

He mentioned that the plugs were dry...

I suppose that this should be asked:
You're not giving it any throttle when trying to start it; are you?

 

[gsjock]

No, I am not giving it any throttle (but I have tried it with no results), It has been verified that there is not a problem with Spark, or Flooding. The Fuel injectors are simply not putting fuel into the venturis unless it is primed with fuel first.

 

[Bob Denman]

Clogged fuel filter, or a dead fuel pump? :dontknow:
Please understand: I'm no more of a mechanic, than the dog that you pet, when you get home at night...
I just understand the basic theories behind this stuff, and that's about it... pps:

 

[gsjock]

Tonight I performed a fuel pressure test and the results were 48psi exactly, which is what the manual calls for. I also performed the tests for the cam sensor, crank sensor, and fuel injectors as stated in the manual. All of them came out as they should. I spoke with the dealer I purchased the bike from and their mechanics seem to think it is a dirty fuel injector. I dumped a little fuel down the intake, started it up, and dumped some fuel injector cleaner in the tank and let it run for over an hour. I am planning on getting new fuel injectors on order tomorrow, but I have a hard time buying that its a fuel injector being clogged when it only happens after the bike sits for a period of time. But I will give it a shot! Since I now know it is not a fuel pressure regulator I am thinking ECM, but injectors are cheaper so I will give that a try first. Time to pull out the old parts shotgun!!

And you may not be a mechanic, but I am, and have gotten some great help from people that are not mechanics. Sometimes we as mechanics overthink situations while overlooking the problem! So I thank you for your input!!

 

[Bob Denman]

You've picked a very wise path: eliminate or correct the simplest (and cheapest!) stuff first! :thumbup:
And Thanks for the kind words...

 

[gsjock]

Well, I havent ordered the injectors yet, seems like throwing parts at it is admitting defeat, and I'm stubborn! So... This morning I crank over the bike and it cranks 15 or so times, and fires on the front cyl. for about three seconds then the other cyl kicks in and all is good. WHY??? Any other full night of rest the old girl will not even think about starting.

While at work, I decide to bring a noid light set home, and stick it on the rear cyl. (the one that never gets fuel until the front one is running). I pull the injector lead off of the bike, pull the plug wire to the front cyl. (to assure a NO START condition) connect the noid light, hit the starter and the light flashes!!! At this point I am almost sure it is the injector, and I can prove it by reconnecting the injector and assuring that it still wont run. I hit the start button after the connection to the injector was secured and the rear cyl. comes to life. Many of curse words flew off my toungue! Why did the rear cyl. all of the sudden work as it should?

I let the bike sit now for about three and a half hours, which historically would mean at the least a start on one cyl., but more likely would mean a no start condition. I have everything plugged back in and hit the starter and it roars to life without a hiccup. The situation has just gotten worse as I no longer have a hard fail! If you want to make a mechanic cringe.... Just mention the word INTERMITTENT. :banghead: Time for some whiskey!

 

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: :agree:
I'm sorry that you haven't yet found the source of this...
Could it simply be that the bike has realized that you were getting serious about all of this, and decided it'd be best to co-operate?
(They often DO seem to have minds of their own!)

While taking stuff apart, and putting it back together: could you have inadvertently found and corrected a loose connection? :dontknow:

 

[keefer]

Could have been a weak connection at the injector and you fixed it by disconnecting and reconnecting it. Pins may have oxidized and by disconnecting and reconnecting it cleaned the pin.

 

[gsjock]

It failed on me again this morning, so I hooked in the noid light (BTW the noid light required for this application is the Bosch 2) to the rear cyl. injector and the ECM was pulsing just fine. Alright... we have narrowed it down to the injector!! Then I plugged the injector back in and it fired on the front for a while and the back one came to life after about 5 seconds. Now I have the exact diagnosis!! The rear injector has a bad coil in it and when it shorts out completely also takes the power away from the front injector.

Thanks for giving me a place to ramble on! And thanks for all of the input given by members.

I hope to get the new injector in and have her back on the road by Monday.:yes:

 

[oldgoat]

It is always a pleasure to read a thread from someone who knows what they are doing. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Hope you have it all buttoned down & running fine soon. I have not come across that particular problem before.

 

[gsjock]

I contacted the dealer that I purchased the bike from, Reno's Powersports in Kansas City (I will name their name now as they stand behind their products and I didn't want to give them a bad name by putting them in the post earlier.) and told them the results of all of my tests. And they are sending me an injector and gasket kit free of charge. I opted out of the warranty so they did not have to do this, so props to them!

 

[gsjock]

Since I am that guy who likes to research forums to find out if anyone has had the same problems as me, and usually the forum ends inconclusively, I want to make sure this one is concluded!! Seriously if you can spend time asking for help from others, the least you can do is let everyone know the final solution. SO.... The rear injector fixed the problem! SEE, NOT THAT HARD!!

 

[Bfromla]

Just curious, have you checked the battery ? Here is another thread not as similar to what you describe but may be helpful :dontknow:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?94132-Hard-Starting
I've also read recommendations to hold at full throttle when cranking the 998's has helped some but seems like each one had different symptoms Hope all turns out ez & yall can keep enjoying the :spyder2::thumbup:

 

[Lastchance]

Thanks for posting the outcome it may help the next guy with that problem

 

[Ron2andia]

Glad your dealer stood up! Hope this fixing the issue because I know how frustrating an issue like that can be! Have a car that does a similar thing... Still can't figure it out after 2 years! All that said :congrats::welcome:

 

[rosebelle]

Since I am that guy who likes to research forums to find out if anyone has had the same problems as me, and usually the forum ends inconclusively, I want to make sure this one is concluded!! Seriously if you can spend time asking for help from , the least you can do is let everyone know the final solution. SO.... The rear injector fixed the problem! SEE, NOT THAT HARD!!

Posting your problem to a forum is good but limited. This is because you expect someone to have exactly the same fault/symptoms; but in reality this rarely occurs, every engine/bike problem is usually unique. That's not to say the resolution, as in your case, a new injector does not solve a number of other bikes problems that have different symptoms described. The other difficulty is trying to diagnose a fault without actually seeing it , hearing it or being there.

Having said that, and I don't know the engine specifically, it did seem to me that it was an injector problem from your description and the contributing members' comments/questions.

 

[wanderingman]

Trouble Shooting

I am a retired tech rep for gas turbines and related equipment. While I felt very competent with the equipment I was responsible for, this post showed me how specialized our Spyders are. GSjock, the names of the trouble shooting tools you were using are totally unfamiliar to me, but told me immediately, that you were very familiar with them. I have often watched so called technicians try to trouble shoot a problem by jumping around wildly. It was fun to read as you went through logical systematic trouble shooting. I could even feel your frustration when it failed to repeat. It was also a great example how input from "non mechanics " restart a techs thinking. Thanks for a great post.