Is there a way to get more punch off the line?

[Markubis]

I think the real question for this thread should be "Is there a way to get more traction off the line". I get throttle response off the line with my Ryker enough to spin the tires even in eco mode. That includes rolling starts up to about 15 mph.
In my mind that's wasted power/energy.

I've learned to ramp up exponentially to just below breaking point and it's amazing how quick these are. But more traction would be even better.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I think the real question for this thread should be "Is there a way to get more traction off the line". I get throttle response off the line with my Ryker enough to spin the tires even in eco mode. That includes rolling starts up to about 15 mph.
In my mind that's wasted power/energy.

I've learned to ramp up exponentially to just below breaking point and it's amazing how quick these are. But more traction would be even better.

You can probably achieve this fairly easily yourself without any ECU or throttle mods/enhancements; just toss the OE Spec Kenda rear tire & fit a similar (but not necessarily identically) sized auto tire with the performance characteristics you desire and run it at an appropriate (lower) pressure suitable to the (lighter) load of a Ryker over an auto. Just about any quality auto tire run at anything near the right pressure for the lighter load will almost certainly be a lot harder to get to break traction & therefore spin up than the OE spec tires are at any pressure, let alone the higher pressure their lighter construction requires just to hold the metal bits off the road surface!! :shocked:

I've found that here in South Oz in our prevailing conditions, I can spin up just about any quality auto tire fitted onto the rear of a Spyder (noting that Spyders are generally harder to make the rear tire spin on than Rykers are! ) if I run 20-22psi or higher; while just about any quality auto tire will provide much better traction & basically reduce all but the most extreme efforts to make them spin when they're run at 14-16, or maybe even as high as 18 psi on the softer compound/higher traction tires... again noting that Spyders are heavier & generally harder to make the rear tires spin on than Rykers are.... Altho, maybe our ambient temps here in Oz might be a tad higher on average than those experienced in most Northern States of the US, so it could be easier for me to do this here than it is for you to do over there...:dontknow:

Still, 'Better constructed & performing' auto tires run at the right pressure for the (light) load imposed by a Ryker will almost certainly give you better traction than the OE Spec Kendas & therefore very likely make it harder for you to generate wheelspin without really putting your mind to it... And they'll probably do it without any mods to your throttle or ECU either! :lecturef_smilie:

Just Sayin' hyea:

 

[Peteoz]

its a pseudo dream....................mental mind says "wow, holy cow" i got more power, just a little twist and it goes faster. mental mind, says "wow, holy cow - i have to twist this grip all the way max to giddy-up-speed. its SLOW
i'll skip the petal box and just twist the grip all the way if i want MAX power and speed......WOOHOO!!!

“Mental mind”? Woodaddict? Is there any other kind of mind?

I do not for one minute think I am getting “more power” from the Pedal XXXX, and from what I have read, nor do most others.

My ‘16 F3-T use to bog down when I gave it a big handful of throttle to get up to speed to enter the freeway. I had a tune installed, and it removed that non imaginary bogging down, along with a myriad of other little benefits.

When I bought my ‘21RT, a hard twist of the throttle created that same lag. I did not want to send my ECM off through the mail again, so I though I would try the cheaper Pedal XXXX in the first instance…….and yes, that lag is gone. It is the prime purpose of the Pedal XXXX, and the reduction of lag is what Lamont advertises as its feature.

Just out of interest, have you ever tried a Pedal XXXX, or is your conclusion simply based on your own personal experience without even trying one? There are a significant number of riders on here with pretty smart “mental minds”, who disagree with the conclusion you have drawn

Pete

 

[DickB]

The Pedal Commander absolutely does not make the throttle body faster.

These devices have been around since throttle-by-wire became a thing. I tested one - a Sprint Booster - on my '99 Mercedes SLK 16 years ago. The throttle bodies have a TPS - Throttle Position Sensor - that sends a signal to the ECU so that the ECU knows exactly the position of the actual throttle butterfly. I connected a data logger to the pedal signal and to the TPS signal and ran tests. The top graph is stock, the bottom graph is with the Sprint Booster. You can see a very small lag between the signal to the ECU and the TPS signal, but it is exactly the same in both cases.

If anyone wants to loan me a Ryker Pedal Commander, I'm happy to repeat the test. I am also happy to make a wager on the results, if you think Pedal Commander results are going to be any different.

As I said in my post, if anyone can explain to me HOW the Pedal Commander improves throttle response or makes the throttle body butterfly faster, I'm all ears. The Pedal Commander person with whom I spoke could not. Maybe someone else can do better than a Pedal Commander employee.

 

[Raven]

Sounds like they just ramp up the throttle quicker.
Like when you change the throttle on a motorcycle from a 180 degree to a 90 degree one.
Both open the throttle the same amount, just one does it faster and with less movement of your wrist.

 

[Rogue Hawk]

What was your choice, pedalcommander or pedalbox, the only thing i see different is the pedalbox is waterproof, and the pedal box isn't, so needs a bit more care , mounting...wise

Not sure. There does not seem to be much of a difference.

If used in combination with an ecu flash, would that enhance the experience more?

 

[BajaRon]

Not sure. There does not seem to be much of a difference.

If used in combination with an ecu flash, would that enhance the experience more?

An ECU flash negates the need for a throttle modification unit. But I think the majority will be more than satisfied with a PedalBox or similar. Regardless of what else it may or may not do. It does not hurt anything, makes the ride much more responsive and a great deal more fun to ride for not much money.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

An ECU flash negates the need for a throttle modification unit. But I think the majority will be more than satisfied with a PedalBox or similar. Regardless of what else it may or may not do. It does not hurt anything, makes the ride much more responsive and a great deal more fun to ride for not much money.

IMHO if your going to spend $ 289.00 for a Pedal Box controller. Monster fuel can do the ECU for approx. $ 350.00 .... to me this is a no brainer, cost wise ...... Mike :thumbup:

 

[DickB]

Sounds like they just ramp up the throttle quicker.
Like when you change the throttle on a motorcycle from a 180 degree to a 90 degree one.
Both open the throttle the same amount, just one does it faster and with less movement of your wrist.

Yes. In reality though I would say half right. Less movement of your wrist, but not significantly faster. Attached is an oscilloscope trace of the Ryker twist grip signal with my twisting fully open as fast as I can. Note the time scale is 20mS per division. So I got to full twist in 80 MS - less than 1/10 second. The right vertical line intersection with the red trace shows the signal level that the ECU would see with Pedal Commander with the grip twisted to the same amount (30%) as the left vertical line. In other words, to get the same signal level to the ECU as Pedal Commander would, but without one, I would need to add the time to twist from 30% to 50%, which is the amount of time between the vertical lines - 20 mS, or 0.02 seconds. So yes, that is faster, but I question the significance of that short of a time reduction.

But notice from Pedal Commander's graph, their ramp is actually slower at the upper end. So the time to twist to 100% signal is exactly the same in both cases, the exact same time.




Except for Pedal Commander's Eco mode, Pedal Commander starts with a high rate of sensitivity at low RPMs, and less sensitivity at high RPMS. For best control of wheelspin, that is exactly opposite of what you want. The Mercedes '99 SLK ECU design enhances control. Up to about 1/2 pedal travel, the sensitivity is low. Above that, the sensitivity is high. You don't loose an ounce of power, or any significant time to get to it, but you gain control.



I don't know the Ryker ECU's transfer function, but I would not be surprised if it does something similar as Mercedes in Normal mode. We know that it reduces sensitivity in ECO mode:

"The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting."​

In my mind, Pedal Commander Sport+ mode is ridiculous - 80+% twist grip signal at 10% twist. How can you modulate wheelspin with that? But that statement is just my opinion.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Yes. In reality though I would say half right. Less movement of your wrist, but not significantly faster. Attached is an oscilloscope trace of the Ryker twist grip signal with my twisting fully open as fast as I can. Note the time scale is 20mS per division. So I got to full twist in 80 MS - less than 1/10 second. The right vertical line intersection with the red trace shows the signal level that the ECU would see with Pedal Commander with the grip twisted to the same amount (30%) as the left vertical line. In other words, to get the same signal level to the ECU as Pedal Commander would, but without one, I would need to add the time to twist from 30% to 50%, which is the amount of time between the vertical lines - 20 mS, or 0.02 seconds. So yes, that is faster, but I question the significance of that short of a time reduction.

But notice from Pedal Commander's graph, their ramp is actually slower at the upper end. So the time to twist to 100% signal is exactly the same in both cases, the exact same time.

View attachment 200769


Except for Pedal Commander's Eco mode, Pedal Commander starts with a high rate of sensitivity at low RPMs, and less sensitivity at high RPMS. For best control of wheelspin, that is exactly opposite of what you want. The Mercedes '99 SLK ECU design enhances control. Up to about 1/2 pedal travel, the sensitivity is low. Above that, the sensitivity is high. You don't loose an ounce of power, or any significant time to get to it, but you gain control. I don't know the Ryker ECU's transfer function, but I would not be surprised if it does something similar in Normal mode. We know that it reduces sensitivity in ECO mode:
The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting.

View attachment 200770

I don't know the Ryker ECU's transfer function, but I would not be surprised if it does something similar as Mercedes in Normal mode. We know that it reduces sensitivity in ECO mode:

"The ECO (fuel economy mode) setting reduces fuel consumption by limiting throttle response and maximum throttle opening to maintain an optimal cruising setting."​

In my mind, Pedal Commander Sport+ mode is ridiculous - 80+% twist grip signal at 10% twist. How can you modulate wheelspin with that? But that statement is just my opinion.

DickB .... you are :bdh: ...... it doesn't matter to the " true believers " :roflblack:...... JMHO ..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[DickB]

DickB .... you are :bdh: ...... it doesn't matter to the " true believers " :roflblack:...... JMHO ..... Mike :thumbup:

Yes; similar reaction in the SLK community 16 years ago. But here the OP asked a legit question and got some dubious advice, so I throw this out there for people with an open mind.

It's interesting to note that when I sent my analysis and questions to Sprint Booster for comment, I got no response. Just like I did not get an explanation from Pedal Commander on how their device supports their claims. Despite their marketing hype, the manufacturer's engineers obviously know exactly what their devices can and cannot do - the marketeers just don't want to admit it. They do have lots of happy customers and are making a big profit on these simple devices, so obviously they don't care to impact sales with fact.

 

[blacklightning]

IMHO if your going to spend $ 289.00 for a Pedal Box controller. Monster fuel can do the ECU for approx. $ 350.00 .... to me this is a no brainer, cost wise ...... Mike :thumbup:

I see what you are saying 100% (btw, they can be had for about $239). But knowing that the pedal box and pedal commander doesn't change any other engine parameters and appears to be 100% safe was the deciding factor for me. Plus the fact that the seat of pants feel makes it seem faster was enough to convince me. I just don't know about sending my ecu off. I know the possibility of something happening to it is slim, but with my luck, I would be the first one. I am actually going to do the pedal commander on my mustang.

 

[BajaRon]

We've got 2 virtually identical F3's. We've got Pedalbox on one. We will get the ECU flash on the other. This will give us a real world comparison which should be interesting.

 

[mandytuning]

From now i bet the flash is gonna kick his a..

 

[Peteoz]

I just don't know about sending my ecu off. I know the possibility of something happening to it is slim, but with my luck, I would be the first one. I am actually going to do the pedal commander on my mustang.

Yes, that was the deciding factor for me in going the Pedal Commander route, blacklightning. The retune on my F3 was brilliant ($800 out here, Mike), it removed the lag, made it very smooth even during quick acceleration, but since that lag removal was my biggest bugbear, and since Australia Post appear to be constantly “mislaying” packages these days, I decided on the Pedal route.
”works as advertised”:2thumbs:

Did you know that at least one of the ECM tuners (Monster, maybe), now has a unit you can purchase for home which contains the Spyder tune, blacklightning? No need to mail your ECM. You simply plug it in and remap. You can remove the map at any time. Unfortunately, they hadn’t made their way to Aus when I purchased the Pedal.

Pete

 

[Peteoz]

From now i bet the flash is gonna kick his a..

As it should, Mandytuning. The flash is the more expensive, more complete option. :thumbup:.

Pete

 

[Rogue Hawk]

I do understand that they don't increase power.
Some of you say both solutions do not add standing response, and some say they do :dontknow: Also, what ecu tunes would help?

 

[blacklightning]

Although there is no increase in power with the pedal box or pedal commander, there is quite a difference coming off the line. 3 weeks ago I was on my 2016 F3 Limited, another friend was on his 2021 F3T. Both if them had the pedal commander. Another friend was with us on his 2021 F3S. He could not keep up off the line to save his life. 2 weeks later we rode together and he was telling me that he ordered a pedal commander. When I asked him why, he commented that he was trying his best, and could not keep up with us off the line. So to those that say "just simply twist the throttle more and you will get the same effects", that is NOT TRUE! You cannot twist the throttle enough on a stock spyder to keep up with the same or even near same spyder with a pedal box or pedal commander. This is not an opinion, it is a fact that I have seen first hand.

 

[DickB]

So to those that say "just simply twist the throttle more and you will get the same effects", that is NOT TRUE! \

It is absolutely true. Just look at Pedal Commander's own graph, and you can see this. Pedal Commander plugs in between the twist grip and the ECU. The only thing it can alter is the twist grip signal to the ECU. On the Ryker this signal is a simple analog voltage varying from 0V no twist to 1V full twist. In either case, with or without Pedal Commander, 100% twist delivers the exact same 1V max signal to the ECU. You can match any voltage in between by twisting a different amount with or without Pedal Commander. This is pretty basic electronics, which can easily be proven with a simple multimeter.

 

[Warlock]

Quote: The Pedal Commander increases (or decreases) the sensitivity of the twist grip, but does not improve throttle response. If you improve the sensitivity you improve throttle response. There is a big difference using one and not using one. No added hp, but delivering the hp quicker to you. Bottom line if you want one buy it.
David