Interesting performance comparo between F3 and Indian

[Xyzzy]

FWIW

I have access to a place where I can open up my toys for a very long stretch*. The F3 is a barn door. I have tested it against a head wind and barely broke 105 MPH in 5th. I have never tested it with a tail wind. The max speeds I posted are in still air. The RPM readings I posted are not instant values. They are sustained for 30 seconds or more. In fourth it will actually bump 8150 RPM but then the rev limiter softly kicks in and it stays at 8100 RPM. I do not tuck in when I do my testing and I don't have a windshield.

*Professional driver on a closed circuit course. Or something like that.

YMMV

I have no need to go super fast so the design as-is works for me. It pulls reasonably well up to 100 MPH. If there was an insurance discount that limited my toys to 100 MPH I would accept that trade!

I'd certainly rather have the low end torque of the 1330 rather than the upper end hit of the older engine. The fuel economy alone makes a huge difference.

At first I thought having the higher "Not North American" gearing would be better but after riding a lot at 55 MPH I feel the "North American" gearing is perfect WRT power developed. (In another thread a guy mentioned trying to swap out the pulleys and belts and the F3 went into limp mode.)

I am really just interested in knowing what the difference in performance is between our European/Australasian models and the Northern models, to maybe figure out why they changed the rear sprocket, and I also enjoy entering into discussions on here and giving my opinion.

My uneducated guess is they are trying to "sell" the bike to people (Americans?) who don't rev out the bike. I know I have a tendency to run at lower-than-optimal RPMs.

 

[BajaRon]

My F3 can't get anywhere near 130 MPH.

6th @ 6650 = 113
5th @ 7850 = 113
4th @ 8100 = 99

That means that my 2008 GS is faster than your F3!

Hard to believe...

 

[Wildrice]

Aerodynamics

I agree.......with 850 lbs, the aero of a brick and only 115 hp I don't believe the laws of physics will allow any near 130 mph.

I have had a few Harley's & I know what bad aerodynamics feels like at top speed. But the 2014 Harley street glide special weighed over 850# with approx. 75 HP & if that pig could hit 115 why couldn't the f3's hit 127 mph as per magazine articles? I have had it past 112 due to road traffic but the tach showed 6200 rpm with the max hp rated at 115 at 7500. The F3's was pulling strong at 112. I will follow up & retest when road conditi

ons permit. By the way---the 2015 Z06 can't hit 200 mph in the mile & we can​

 

[DrewNJ]

I have had a few Harley's & I know what bad aerodynamics feels like at top speed. But the 2014 Harley street glide special weighed over 850# with approx. 75 HP & if that pig could hit 115 why couldn't the f3's hit 127 mph as per magazine articles? I have had it past 112 due to road traffic but the tach showed 6200 rpm with the max hp rated at 115 at 7500. The F3's was pulling strong at 112. I will follow up & retest when road conditi

ons permit. By the way---the 2015 Z06 can't hit 200 mph in the mile & we can​

The main difference is how your looking at HP. BRP HP is "claimed" HP and likely at the crank. Nobody that I'm aware of has actually dyno'd one and posted the real numbers.
Harley HP is a true dyno HP at the wheel with, as you know, a ton of dyno graphs.
I'd think they are likely very close if measured the same.

Also, little odds and ends..... aerodynamics imho are still better on the Harley, and less rolling resistance, and dry weight is closer to 810lbs wet. Vs. The f3 at 850lbs dry.

 

[petegtsv10]

I have had a few Harley's & I know what bad aerodynamics feels like at top speed. But the 2014 Harley street glide special weighed over 850# with approx. 75 HP & if that pig could hit 115 why couldn't the f3's hit 127 mph as per magazine articles? I have had it past 112 due to road traffic but the tach showed 6200 rpm with the max hp rated at 115 at 7500. The F3's was pulling strong at 112. I will follow up & retest when road conditi

ons permit. By the way---the 2015 Z06 can't hit 200 mph in the mile & we can​

The tests you've seen are probably for a ZO7. The ZO7 is 10-15 mph slower than a ZO6 due to massive downforce.

 

[Wildrice]

DrewNJ

The main difference is how your looking at HP. BRP HP is "claimed" HP and likely at the crank. Nobody that I'm aware of has actually dyno'd one and posted the real numbers.
Harley HP is a true dyno HP at the wheel with, as you know, a ton of dyno graphs.
I'd think they are likely very close if measured the same.

I have never seen a mfg dyno published at anything other than the crankshaft on a bench. If you want I will find my old dyno sheets on the 1450 cc deuce--Scraming Eagle +--heads ported, cam, Mukini carb with Screamin eagle exhaust tuned with Power Commander. Harley only publishes Torque---if you have a Harley mfg spec sheet that shows HP I'd love to see it---none exist. My modified Scraming Eagle Harley put out approx 85-90 rwhp. The 1298 cc bike in my video puts out 343 rwhp with 212 # torgue at the RW,. both dyno sheets are your for the asking. One interesting part is a previous entry that stated 6850 rpm in 6th gear at 113 mph. I'm closer to 6200 at that speed. Wonder if there's a sprocket difference??? Mnfg date on my F3's is 1/15/2015.
Darrell

 

[petegtsv10]

The main difference is how your looking at HP. BRP HP is "claimed" HP and likely at the crank. Nobody that I'm aware of has actually dyno'd one and posted the real numbers.
Harley HP is a true dyno HP at the wheel with, as you know, a ton of dyno graphs.
I'd think they are likely very close if measured the same.

Also, little odds and ends..... aerodynamics imho are still better on the Harley, and less rolling resistance, and dry weight is closer to 810lbs wet. Vs. The f3 at 850lbs dry.

Motorcycle driveline loss is only about 10% as opposed to cars' 15-20%. Thus, the H-D hp is still far under the F3 even measured at the rear wheel.

 

[DrewNJ]

Don't forget, "claimed" 115hp.....I think you'd be surprised...[emoji57]

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[DrewNJ]

Wildrice, Google harley 103 dyno and you'll find all the dyno shots your looking for. The stock 103 specs out right at 76-79hp at the wheel pretty consistently on an indy dyno. I have no idea what HD "claims" the hp is.. Brp claims a 115hp at the crank but who knows....

The f3 isn't doing 130. One of you can go pro a run and prove me wrong!....[emoji106]

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[Wildrice]

F3 Dyno

We need to find a way to disable the limp mode on the F3 and allow full power without front wheel movement. Shouldn't be that difficult with adequate documentation.

We re-flash the Hayabusa ECM module & can change just about any parameter---internal ECM processor code stuff was cracked by a guy from Finland, thus the web gives info access to F3's everywhere.

The magazine articles I have read state estimated mph 127 for the F3. I don't have easy access to a location to top end test. Timing avoiding traffic-etc :banghead:

HP loss to driving wheel using a belt is less than going through a cars drivetrain.

DREW from NJ. How close are you to http://www.loringtiming.com land speed racing on the B52 3 mile track??

 

[petegtsv10]

We need to find a way to disable the limp mode on the F3 and allow full power without front wheel movement. Shouldn't be that difficult with adequate documentation.

We re-flash the Hayabusa ECM module & can change just about any parameter---internal ECM processor code stuff was cracked by a guy from Finland, thus the web gives info access to F3's everywhere.

The magazine articles I have read state estimated mph 127 for the F3. I don't have easy access to a location to top end test. Timing avoiding traffic-etc :banghead:

HP loss to driving wheel using a belt is less than going through a cars drivetrain.

DREW from NJ. How close are you to http://www.loringtiming.com land speed racing on the B52 3 mile track??

What does your first sentence mean?

 

[DrewNJ]

Darrell, that's in Maine right? I'm probably like 11 hours from me. If I knew a group was going up I might be interested in going though!
Could be fun!

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[Wildrice]

Limp mode

What does your first sentence mean?

Drew---I haven't tried to dyno the F3 myself--but others have claimed the F3 goes into "limp mode" if the front wheels are not turning--thus most of the F3 power is reduced with the rear drive wheel on the dyno alone. 11 hours to Loring---I'm approx 1100 miles, & my trailer would have 2" clearance front wheels to trailer ramp sides & I hate long rides pulling a trailer--even without a trailer. Plus all the Land Speed Racing LSR tracks have strict complianance . Top speed allowed on a car without roll cage & chute is 135 mph--maybe 150 on some tracks---most are on abandoned airport strips. I never ran at Utah Bonneville but they claim this years weather has caused lots of damage to 3 mi & 8 mi salt track. Plus the salt is brutal on the vehicles---most park on top of lawn sprinklers after returning & they still have vehicle damage.
Bikes need to have axle drilled & safety wired, Snell 2010 helmet--DOT will not suffice, full leathers, boots with 10" high ankle leather, gaunlet gloves. some require oil filter safety wired---endless safety stuff--even up to 135 mph class.
Darrell
PS: I lived in Asbury Park in the 1968-1970 working for IBM out of W. Long Branch before the riots destroyed the town. Jersy shore was a fun time in the Summer time :yes:

 

[SimplyF3]

F3 top speed

I have gotten my f3 up to but not above 120mph in 5th gear .. About 2-3 times a week lol. There is not much power once you top out 5th.

I weigh 260 pounds so a smaller person I'd assume could go faster.

 

[petegtsv10]

I have gotten my f3 up to but not above 120mph in 5th gear .. About 2-3 times a week lol. There is not much power once you top out 5th.

I weigh 260 pounds so a smaller person I'd assume could go faster.

Was the 120 mph on your speedo or a GPS?

 

[AZF3S]

:shocked: That's NOT part of Canada?? :shocked:

Now that's some funny stuff right there.

 

[Xyzzy]

To dyno the F3 just put all of the wheel sensors on the rear wheel. (Is that possible? Dunno! But it would work!)

A thought about horsepower: I had a Yamaha R3 with maybe 35 HP on a good day. That bike hauled me up to 104 MPH numerous times at my secret testing facility. That shows that areodynamics and rolling resistance are big hits to the F3.

Everyone wants YouTube footage of a top speed run. I'm not about to do that. But I can tell you that my particular unit refuses to go beyond 113 MPH. Maybe I have a defective F3? I keep testing it, so maybe someday I'll get it up to 114 MPH.

 

[Xyzzy]

Some data from today's testing:

This data illustrates how aerodynamics kill the F3. In my previous testing, the air was still. I always do runs both directions and the speed is the same.

Today there was a moderate wind so I went faster with a tail wind and slower with a head wind.

6th with tail wind = 116 MPH @ 6800 RPM
6th with head wind = 109 MPH @ 6350 RPM

5th with tail wind = 115 MPH @ 8000 RPM
5th with head wind = 110 MPH @ 7650 RPM

You can see that in 5th the F3 was not able to pull any more, probably because it passed the power peak @ 7500 RPM.

Will the F3 pull 7500 RPM in 6th? Maybe with a tornado pushing you! (Or off of a cliff?)

I don't plan to continue testing. I don't think there is anything else to uncover.

YMMV

 

[petegtsv10]

Some data from today's testing:

This data illustrates how aerodynamics kill the F3. In my previous testing, the air was still. I always do runs both directions and the speed is the same.

Today there was a moderate wind so I went faster with a tail wind and slower with a head wind.

6th with tail wind = 116 MPH @ 6800 RPM
6th with head wind = 109 MPH @ 6350 RPM

5th with tail wind = 115 MPH @ 8000 RPM
5th with head wind = 110 MPH @ 7650 RPM

You can see that in 5th the F3 was not able to pull any more, probably because it passed the power peak @ 7500 RPM.

Will the F3 pull 7500 RPM in 6th? Maybe with a tornado pushing you! (Or off of a cliff?)

I don't plan to continue testing. I don't think there is anything else to uncover.

YMMV

You certainly have addressed claims of 130 mph! I would have predicted the speed higher in 5th gear than in 6th. Were your numbers from the speedo or a GPS? If you average the speeds with tailwind and headwind, you would get a reasonable number for top speed w/o a wind at all. That works out to about 112.5 mph. That is believable to me.

 

[Xyzzy]

I would have predicted the speed higher in 5th gear than in 6th.

My guess is the power falls off quickly after the 7500 RPM peak.

Were your numbers from the speedo or a GPS?

Speedo.

If you average the speeds with tailwind and headwind, you would get a reasonable number for top speed w/o a wind at all. That works out to about 112.5 mph. That is believable to me.

It jives with my earlier (no wind) testing. I consider the 113 MPH results the "real" top speed.