I need more power, Scotty!

[Rob Rodriguez]

I'm not an engine expert and my response is based on other BRP products as well, not just the Spyder. I'm not trying to cause issues here either, its just some thoughts I've had after looking at and riding many BRP products over the years. I suppose I should also say when I say speed or performance I'm not talking about topping out at 150 mph rather than 100 mph. I really could care less about top speed. What I like (want) is hard acceleration. Punch the throttle at 30-40 mph, and feel really strong hard acceleration to 60-80 mph. If you've ridden 600 or 800 2-stroke BRP sleds then you will completely understand what I'm talking about.

BRP 4-Stroke sleds. The 600 Ace, 900 Ace, 1200.......all the BRP 4-stroke sleds I have ridden to be honest are VERY underpowered. Sure if your goal is to cruise the groomed trails at 40-55mph then they are fine but if you want to get off trail or do some performance trail riding then I say without a doubt that a BRP 4-stroke sled IS NOT FOR YOU. You should buy a Yamaha cause they are pulling about 25hp more out of a smaller engine and its clutched to feel like a 2-stroke.

BRP side by sides. I don't own a side x side but a friend of mine does. It has a 1000 Rotax 4-stroke engine. Having ridden and driven this machine I can say that the engine isn't "performance" mined. That's OK because its a side x side. But I stop into the local BRP dealer and I see BRP is offering the 1000 side x side with a turbo and they are making a big deal about how it puts out 120hp. Sure that's an improvement but Yamaha has a smaller 4-stroke with a turbo that is putting out about 55hp more than the Rotax.

I own a 2012 RS Spyder with 990 engine. I love riding it but from the first day (even the test ride) one of my issues is power. The bike needs more "snap". I really don't care about top speed and the Spyder is plenty fast on top end for me. I just want more low and mid range. I want to punch the throttle and feel it turn on.

So that is 3 different BRP products that have 4-stroke engines that to me are underwhelming in the power department. Now, switch gears to BRP 2-stroke sleds and its a whole different story. BRP makes some damn fine 2-stroke motors that put out great HP. When you ride these machines they respond and respond well to throttle input. It makes them very fun to ride. Now, I'm not a huge Yamaha fan but in terms of engines I have to give them credit. They are the only sled/atv/bike manufacturer that seems to be able to put a 4-stroke engine into a snowmobile that has some serious fun factor. These engines respond like the BRP 2-strokes and riding a machine with them is fun. This tells me its possible to have "fun" 4-strokes.

So, in my opinion what I'm calling "fun" 4-strokes (4-strokes that are lighter, put out great horsepower and respond well to the throttle input) can be built for the power sports business (Yamaha proves this) but ROTAX and BRP doesn't seem to be providing their customers with this in any of their products. Why is this? I'm not sure but in my opinion its one of 2 reasons. Either BRP does not want to provide these types of engines in their products or ROTAX is not capable of building a performance 4-stroke engine.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

SUPER SPYDER

I currently own a 2008 GS and also just purchased a 2015 RT-S.

In 2009 an engineer from the one of the Aprilla race support teams developed a kit that put the Can Am 990 back close to the original specs of the 990 before Can Am de-tuned it for liability issues.

The kit included a set of high compression pistons, 02 modifier, new intake, exhaust. The setup makes 140 hp and halls ars! I have put 11,500 mls on the GS since the update with zero issues. I have raced several 600 crotch rockets and beat them to 100, after that the Spyder is just to heavy to stay with them. I have also raced the AeroCharger turbo Spyder setup at Spyderfest, beat that setup by 10 lengths in about a 1/4 mile, the techs were there from AC, they were not happy... 0-60 in just over 4 seconds

Trike is currently for sale in Minneapolis.

Making the RT go fast is the next project...

Daniel

:yikes:...#1. How much are you asking for it ???....#2......How did you fool / trick / defeat the computers........Mike :thumbup:

 

[DrewNJ]

Not true in the jetski world. In the jetski world the Rotax 4tec motor is pretty much the motor to have. Great power, light weight, durable, fantastic upgrades available.
2 strokes are fading fast.

 

[Rob Rodriguez]

I agree 2-strokes are fading fast. What scares me is the 4-stroke replacements will not even be close to what the 2-stroke customer expectations. I'd love to buy a 4-stroke snowmobile but currently there isn't a manufacturer that produces one that can truly replace a 2-stroke. When you take the "fun" factor away from something its not fun anymore. These 4-stroke sleds have no "fun" factor. They have a more "utility" type factor.

That's what I want more of in my Spyder, the "fun" factor. I believe its power plant is limited the fun factor (for me anyway). I have not ridden a 1330. I would never buy an RT so I'd have to pick up and F3. I have not ridden one but did sit on the dealer demo last week. Honestly, I just wasn't comfortable. I'm short (5'-8", 175 lbs) and I felt very cramped up on the F3. I'd have to adjust the pegs to see if that could be solved. I'm going to stop by the dealer with my helmet and give it a test ride soon. Maybe 2016 will have the 1330 (performance tuned) in an RS?

I don't want to sound like the HP rating is what its all about. Its not really. For me its all about what the "seat of my pants" tells me when I ride. It doesn't matter if it has 1 or 500hp, it just has to make you feel like you can't grab that $5 bill off the dash (even if you physically can) cause the power is pushing you backward.

 

[DrewNJ]

I agree 2-strokes are fading fast. What scares me is the 4-stroke replacements will not even be close to what the 2-stroke customer expectations. I'd love to buy a 4-stroke snowmobile but currently there isn't a manufacturer that produces one that can truly replace a 2-stroke. When you take the "fun" factor away from something its not fun anymore. These 4-stroke sleds have no "fun" factor. They have a more "utility" type factor.

That's what I want more of in my Spyder, the "fun" factor. I believe its power plant is limited the fun factor (for me anyway). I have not ridden a 1330. I would never buy an RT so I'd have to pick up and F3. I have not ridden one but did sit on the dealer demo last week. Honestly, I just wasn't comfortable. I'm short (5'-8", 175 lbs) and I felt very cramped up on the F3. I'd have to adjust the pegs to see if that could be solved. I'm going to stop by the dealer with my helmet and give it a test ride soon. Maybe 2016 will have the 1330 (performance tuned) in an RS?

I don't want to sound like the HP rating is what its all about. Its not really. For me its all about what the "seat of my pants" tells me when I ride. It doesn't matter if it has 1 or 500hp, it just has to make you feel like you can't grab that $5 bill off the dash (even if you physically can) cause the power is pushing you backward.

Give it a chance. We thought the same for the skis and now I'd never even consider going back to 2 stroke. Forced induction allows for some serious power in a pretty light weight package. Pretty common to see 300hp+, kawi is even doing 310hp stock. 260hp stock 3 cyl rotax stock with huge potential available. That's unheard of in the 2 stroke world.
It's the way of the future my friend....

 

[jwood4242]

closed minded

Wow. I'm surprised at all the closed minds here. Might as well not purchase any upgrades produced by others. If you want any then the Spyder is not for you.
To me, it's an enjoyable past time modify things with wheels. Helps businesses too.
Thanks for the advice though.

I didn't think of it like that. Your correct and I do understand where your coming from. This is the first bike I've owned that I haven't purchased multiple power upgrades for, it's just not why I ride the Spyder. I will try to be a little less closed minded

 

[redrt]

get a sport bike

Power to weight plain and simple if you want to go fast lose the weight get a sport bike. I have a Yamaha FZ1 150 Hp on the ground about 435 lbs. My F3 nice trike fun to ride plenty of power for the size and weight. If your buddies are on sport bikes your left behind, find a bunch of old farts on baggers you will be OK. My wife's 2012 RT will out do friends baggers with stage 3 kits and Her bike is stock. So I know the F3 will hold its own. When I want to ride all day and not worry about my bad hip I jump on the F3. If I want to toast some butt get out the FZ1 and let her rip. The cat pipe we put sounds nice not sure how much power it gained but it makes me smile when I get on it. Best thing multiple bikes one for every occasion:doorag:, Jim.

 

[sxonwls]

:yikes:...#1. How much are you asking for it ???....#2......How did you fool / trick / defeat the computers........Mike :thumbup:

Hi Mike,

I am asking $9800.

The set up is very simple, the O2 modifier is the factory unit with a slight modification, it allows you to adjust the fuel pressure manually, you simply hook up a pressure gauge and change the fuel/ air ratio if wanted, honestly I haven't changed it from the setting recommend from Ken the engineer. Once a summer I check it to make sure nothing has changed. It hasn't changed in over 11,000 mls. My understanding is that the O2 modifier modifies the signal AFTER the ECU so the ECU has no idea it exists. The cool thing is that with this approach the ECU still functions normally for adjustments in ambient temp changes. Everything works like it was suppose to from the factory. Remember: the original Aprilla motors that were used in the early Spyders produced 160 hp in their street bikes setup, so all this kit is an exchange of parts that Can Am used to de-tune the motor.

If you have any interest in learning more call me and I can explain in better detail.

Bike is in better than new condition.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/5028698581.html


Daniel
612.817.0167

 

[Nemesis]

Hi Mike,

I am asking $9800.

The set up is very simple, the O2 modifier is the factory unit with a slight modification, it allows you to adjust the fuel pressure manually, you simply hook up a pressure gauge and change the fuel/ air ratio if wanted, honestly I haven't changed it from the setting recommend from Ken the engineer. Once a summer I check it to make sure nothing has changed. It hasn't changed in over 11,000 mls. My understanding is that the O2 modifier modifies the signal AFTER the ECU so the ECU has no idea it exists. The cool thing is that with this approach the ECU still functions normally for adjustments in ambient temp changes. Everything works like it was suppose to from the factory. Remember: the original Aprilla motors that were used in the early Spyders produced 160 hp in their street bikes setup, so all this kit is an exchange of parts that Can Am used to de-tune the motor.

If you have any interest in learning more call me and I can explain in better detail.

Bike is in better than new condition.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/5028698581.html


Daniel
612.817.0167

Is "Ken the engineer" familiar with the F3 setup? I've been looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to unlock the 1330's potential!

 

[latinojj]

Add me to the list that would truly like to see a tuner available for the CanAm ECU. I also think there is real market for this with there now being over 100,000 Spyders on the road.

Right on. Add me too !

 

[PMK]

find a bunch of old farts on baggers you will be OK. :doorag:, Jim.

How to best sum up the reality that a Spyder RT series is no racer, awesome statement Jim.

PK

 

[sxonwls]

Power to the people..

Right on. Add me too !

No, unfortunately Ken is not working on the new 1330, the original motors for the GS were transplanted from the 990 Aprilla street bike. The new 1330 is specific built by Bombardier so Kens wizardry is not applicable..

The best hope for 1330 performance upgrades is going to come from the snowmobile industry when Ski-doo releases it in their sleds, rumor has it they will be in the 2017 sleds. Then it will be how much power do you want because the turbo set ups that will be offered will easily be in the 230hp-260hp range on 92 octane.

 

[Nemesis]

No, unfortunately Ken is not working on the new 1330, the original motors for the GS were transplanted from the 990 Aprilla street bike. The new 1330 is specific built by Bombardier so Kens wizardry is not applicable..

The best hope for 1330 performance upgrades is going to come from the snowmobile industry when Ski-doo releases it in their sleds, rumor has it they will be in the 2017 sleds. Then it will be how much power do you want because the turbo set ups that will be offered will easily be in the 230hp-260hp range on 92 octane.

This sounds promising... I wonder if any work is being done in preparation for the 1330 being put in the 2017 sleds. Don't want to wait 2+ years lol. One thing I was interested in is the feasibility of a supercharger. It seems like that would be better suited than a turbo for the Spyder.

 

[jcthorne]

I would be very interested in a well engineered and tested turbo or supercharger kit for my F3. I think as the F3 sales grow, its market demographic will be more attuned to this type of upgrade and they will sell well. IF they are shown reliable.

 

[Rob Rodriguez]

I'm skeptical the 1330 will make an appearance in sleds. The only reason I say this is, the weight factor. The current crop of Rotax 4-strokes for sleds are too heavy and the 1330 isn't going to be any lighter. In stock form it doesn't put out that great a HP # either (a 600cc 2-stroke will walk all over it). Not much incentive for the sled buyer to move to the 1330 with stats like that.

Just to interject another thought into this. I don't understand why people are so willing to spend more $ (lots more, like thousands) to bring a stock engine (Spyder) closer to its full potential? I mean in my opinion Spyders are priced at a premium already (all models). Shouldn't I be receiving premium engine performance (or closer to it than it currently is) at the buy in price? Some of the responses here say BRP techs have said the motor is reliably capable of higher performance. If I'm paying a premium price for a Spyder shouldn't the factory be delivering that "reliable higher performance" already? No one buys a sports car thinking, "This car will really perform when I spend $5K on aftermarket upgrades on it". They buy the car expecting a certain level of performance out of the box.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

PERFORMANCE VS. LONGEVITY & RELIABILITY

I'm skeptical the 1330 will make an appearance in sleds. The only reason I say this is, the weight factor. The current crop of Rotax 4-strokes for sleds are too heavy and the 1330 isn't going to be any lighter. In stock form it doesn't put out that great a HP # either (a 600cc 2-stroke will walk all over it). Not much incentive for the sled buyer to move to the 1330 with stats like that.

Just to interject another thought into this. I don't understand why people are so willing to spend more $ (lots more, like thousands) to bring a stock engine (Spyder) closer to its full potential? I mean in my opinion Spyders are priced at a premium already (all models). Shouldn't I be receiving premium engine performance (or closer to it than it currently is) at the buy in price? Some of the responses here say BRP techs have said the motor is reliably capable of higher performance. If I'm paying a premium price for a Spyder shouldn't the factory be delivering that "reliable higher performance" already? No one buys a sports car thinking, "This car will really perform when I spend $5K on aftermarket upgrades on it". They buy the car expecting a certain level of performance out of the box.

:lecturef_smilie:....Rob life's a trade-off on many things ....this is one of them. Think about this, considering the Demographics of the Spyder what % of buyers would be SERIOUSLY interested in a 200 HP engine at the same cost ....if they were told the GAS mileage was going to be ....20 MPG ?????.......The speed limits in this country aren't going to be different for Spyder driver's.......And in the 1/4 mile maybe 1.5 seconds MAYBE !!!!......just my thoughts on this one .............Personally ...I LOVE THE BRAKES :bowdown: :clap: :yes: :yes: :yes: ..........Mike

 

[jcthorne]

Higher HP potential in the same engine and displacement does not necessarily mean lower fuel economy. The engine only makes the HP when the throttle is open. And that is a VERY small part of its operating time. Not Hwy cruising.

 

[Rob Rodriguez]

I think just as many people would be interested as those who wouldn't. If two Spyders of the exact same model (doesn't matter which model) where in the show room at the exact same price and one had 107 hp and one had 150 hp my guess is 75% of the people would go with the higher horsepower unit. They may not use the power but that's the one they would choose. If BRP only offered a 150 hp Spyder would you not buy it because it had 150 hp?

Currently BRP doesn't break up models by performance. It may say the RSS is the "performance" model but........... In reality Spyders are categorized by how you sit on them or what you can carry/store on them. Really, the performance of an RS, ST, RT or F3 is "about" the same.

One of the most common statements made about the F3 is, "its faster, or has more torque, or pulls harder than my old Spyder". So weather or not people want to admit they like that "more power" feeling it seems like most of them do. On the flip side, the HP rating of the 1330 isn't much different than the 990. I'm not saying I need 200 HP. Maybe 120 or 140 or 150 or maybe it doesn't need any more all at. I'm saying I want it to perform (accelerate, pull) better. I'm not looking to break the speed limit (although I typically do and that is because the limits are unrealistic) I'm saying I want to get to that speed limit faster.

If BRP offered me an RSS that had the same HP rating as the current model, had a top end of 100 mph, was the same price as the current model but accelerated with attitude between the speeds of 25 and 75 mph then I'd go buy one today. I agree this line of thinking may not be in line with the current Spyder demographic but maybe the current Spyder demographic is what it is because this line of thinking isn't being followed?

 

[Nemesis]

I want pavement wrinkling acceleration! I don't care about breaking 100 MPH. It's the 0-100 MPH that's the thrill

I agree that selling a detuned engine is unfair to the buyer. I assume BRP wants to sell a tamer product because it is safer and there is a lower chance of legal issues... It may also be cheaper to produce.

 

[Bob Denman]

I think just as many people would be interested as those who wouldn't. If two Spyders of the exact same model (doesn't matter which model) where in the show room at the exact same price and one had 107 hp and one had 150 hp my guess is 75% of the people would go with the higher horsepower unit. They may not use the power but that's the one they would choose. If BRP only offered a 150 hp Spyder would you not buy it because it had 150 hp?

Currently BRP doesn't break up models by performance. It may say the RSS is the "performance" model but........... In reality Spyders are categorized by how you sit on them or what you can carry/store on them. Really, the performance of an RS, ST, RT or F3 is "about" the same.

One of the most common statements made about the F3 is, "its faster, or has more torque, or pulls harder than my old Spyder". So weather or not people want to admit they like that "more power" feeling it seems like most of them do. On the flip side, the HP rating of the 1330 isn't much different than the 990. I'm not saying I need 200 HP. Maybe 120 or 140 or 150 or maybe it doesn't need any more all at. I'm saying I want it to perform (accelerate, pull) better. I'm not looking to break the speed limit (although I typically do and that is because the limits are unrealistic) I'm saying I want to get to that speed limit faster.

If BRP offered me an RSS that had the same HP rating as the current model, had a top end of 100 mph, was the same price as the current model but accelerated with attitude between the speeds of 25 and 75 mph then I'd go buy one today. I agree this line of thinking may not be in line with the current Spyder demographic but maybe the current Spyder demographic is what it is because this line of thinking isn't being followed?

Rob,
When have you EVER seen a Company fire all of it's best shots at once?
Give the 1330 a chance to grow...
Incremental changes always look better; they help to increase sales! :thumbup:
And Mike is right; it's all about balance...
They could EASILY pull an extra 50 or 60 horsepower out of this engine.
But would it give the same service life, and would you want to live with it on a daily basis? :dontknow: