Hope you're all happy now!

[rays hell]

Written word

A friend of mine says you Can Not tell emotion or intent in the written word.
I think if you feel you have to have the last word, you may find yourself very busy trying to spar with some people.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I probably shouldn't post again but I just feel a need to share a few things I learned in 22 years in Quality Assurance and contractor oversight.

No expert knowledge or opinion is infallible. That does not mean expert knowledge and opinion is not valid, because most of the time it is. It just isn't the ultimate. I've made this comment to my doctors several times. "Every person in the food and medical industry who is knowledgeable about diet and nutrition shares a common characteristic with every teacher of every religion in the world. There isn't a single one of them who has a lock on the truth!" As we know, expert opinions often conflict. My GPs for years prescribed Actos for me for diabetes. I was told it was good drug to take as it had few, if any, side effects. A few weeks ago my current GP had me drop it and change to another med in an attempt to get my blood glucose numbers to come down. I visited with my heart doctor the other day and I mentioned about dropping Actos. "That's good," he said. "Actos is a bad actor for the heart." So, did I receive advice based on new science, or is this a case of differing expert opinions?

Experts don't always know the answer. A number of years ago I was doing a QA audit of one of the Army Ammunition Plants. They were making grenades that go into artillery rounds. These are kind of like a small cup with explosive pressed into it. I asked the management team a few questions about the filling and pressing operation.
"What is the effect of pressure variation during the pressing process?" Their answer, "We don't know."
"What is the effect of ambient temperature changes during pressing?" "We don't know."
"What is the effect of speed differences of the plunger during pressing?" "We don't know."
"What is the effect of varying the dwell time of the plunger at the bottom of the pressing stroke?" "We don't know."
I responded with this, "You guys have been pounding powder for 40 years and you really don't know what it is you are doing!" Were they making junk all this time? No. But they did have a lot of duds and did not know why. These were expert ammunition makers having been doing it since during World War II, and still they did not have all the answers.

During my QA career I came up with this slogan: QAQAQA, The Questioning Approach of Quality Assurance Leads to the Quintessential Answer. I did not need to know the answer beforehand in order the ask the question. I always said one of three things would result whenever I questioned an engineer, production manager, or even a line worker. 1) I learned something; or 2) the person I was questioning would reevaluate their process and make changes to improve it; or 3) in the process of defending the way they did things they reaffirmed the correctness of what they were doing.

Somewhere I read the following bit of wisdom; "The greatest impediment to progress is already having the answer!" Never hesitate to question what anyone says on this forum, but do it in a civil respectful manner. We will all learn more. And once in awhile, even, we may realize we were wrong. I have.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Hope You'reall happy now

IMS the above was a pleasant read but imho opinion it was apples to oranges and mostly it was .... well it could be, but maybe not, etc..... So I ask you this, if someone on the Forum insists over and over and over that they feel changing your Oil isn't really necessary and then resorts to PERSONAL Attacks on those with an opposing opinion, IS THIS OK ?? .... Should those who know better just ignore those who scream the loudest.....after all the knowledgeable ones are going to change their oil, and the ones who don't ( like a Newbie ) will just learn the Hard way ie. engine seizure..... ( and this did occur on this Forum by a member who has since left ) ..... I'm an X-LEO with 35 yrs. Ignoring wrongdoing wasn't an option for me then, and it still isn't now..... ( that was an Analogy ) .....Today it seems there are lots of folks whose attitude is " if it doesn't effect me personally,( because I know better ) then I'll just keep my mouth shut..... Thank you for starting this Thread maybe some people will re-think what they have to say and the way they say it........ jmho .....Mike :thumbup:

 

[PMK]

I probably shouldn't post again but I just feel a need to share a few things I learned in 22 years in Quality Assurance and contractor oversight.

No expert knowledge or opinion is infallible. That does not mean expert knowledge and opinion is not valid, because most of the time it is. It just isn't the ultimate. I've made this comment to my doctors several times. "Every person in the food and medical industry who is knowledgeable about diet and nutrition shares a common characteristic with every teacher of every religion in the world. There isn't a single one of them who has a lock on the truth!" As we know, expert opinions often conflict. My GPs for years prescribed Actos for me for diabetes. I was told it was good drug to take as it had few, if any, side effects. A few weeks ago my current GP had me drop it and change to another med in an attempt to get my blood glucose numbers to come down. I visited with my heart doctor the other day and I mentioned about dropping Actos. "That's good," he said. "Actos is a bad actor for the heart." So, did I receive advice based on new science, or is this a case of differing expert opinions?

Experts don't always know the answer. A number of years ago I was doing a QA audit of one of the Army Ammunition Plants. They were making grenades that go into artillery rounds. These are kind of like a small cup with explosive pressed into it. I asked the management team a few questions about the filling and pressing operation.
"What is the effect of pressure variation during the pressing process?" Their answer, "We don't know."
"What is the effect of ambient temperature changes during pressing?" "We don't know."
"What is the effect of speed differences of the plunger during pressing?" "We don't know."
"What is the effect of varying the dwell time of the plunger at the bottom of the pressing stroke?" "We don't know."
I responded with this, "You guys have been pounding powder for 40 years and you really don't know what it is you are doing!" Were they making junk all this time? No. But they did have a lot of duds and did not know why. These were expert ammunition makers having been doing it since during World War II, and still they did not have all the answers.

During my QA career I came up with this slogan: QAQAQA, The Questioning Approach of Quality Assurance Leads to the Quintessential Answer. I did not need to know the answer beforehand in order the ask the question. I always said one of three things would result whenever I questioned an engineer, production manager, or even a line worker. 1) I learned something; or 2) the person I was questioning would reevaluate their process and make changes to improve it; or 3) in the process of defending the way they did things they reaffirmed the correctness of what they were doing.

Somewhere I read the following bit of wisdom; "The greatest impediment to progress is already having the answer!" Never hesitate to question what anyone says on this forum, but do it in a civil respectful manner. We will all learn more. And once in awhile, even, we may realize we were wrong. I have.

Sounds like the grenade manufacturer needs less tribal / OJT knowledge and more valid employee training, along with an effective, properly accomplished 6S program.

As for the medical stuff, seems side effects and more importantly long term knowledge is something learned outside the lab. Many great products still to this day perform wonderful for what they were designed for, asbestos for example, or leaded paints, but when you add in human factors, the product gets a bad reputation. Drug side effects, I believe sometimes only come to light after real time use over time.

As for relating to this topic, and the one that was removed, people are people, the rules are posted, and while I do not agree in mass punishment, I have witnessed some folks here get personal time outs with short term bans vs deleting an entire topic if it had value to others.

 

[missouriboy]

I hope you guys are all happy now that your sniping at each other and got the tire thread killed! Disagreements are fine until they turn into personal attacks. Remember that next time!

What tire thread got killed? :dontknow:

I just posted on the recent Altimax thread. :doorag:

 

[Grandpot]

I probably shouldn't post again but I just feel a need to share a few things I learned in 22 years in Quality Assurance and contractor oversight.

No expert knowledge or opinion is infallible. That does not mean expert knowledge and opinion is not valid, because most of the time it is. It just isn't the ultimate. I've made this comment to my doctors several times. "Every person in the food and medical industry who is knowledgeable about diet and nutrition shares a common characteristic with every teacher of every religion in the world. There isn't a single one of them who has a lock on the truth!" As we know, expert opinions often conflict. My GPs for years prescribed Actos for me for diabetes. I was told it was good drug to take as it had few, if any, side effects. A few weeks ago my current GP had me drop it and change to another med in an attempt to get my blood glucose numbers to come down. I visited with my heart doctor the other day and I mentioned about dropping Actos. "That's good," he said. "Actos is a bad actor for the heart." So, did I receive advice based on new science, or is this a case of differing expert opinions?

Experts don't always know the answer. A number of years ago I was doing a QA audit of one of the Army Ammunition Plants. They were making grenades that go into artillery rounds. These are kind of like a small cup with explosive pressed into it. I asked the management team a few questions about the filling and pressing operation.
"What is the effect of pressure variation during the pressing process?" Their answer, "We don't know."
"What is the effect of ambient temperature changes during pressing?" "We don't know."
"What is the effect of speed differences of the plunger during pressing?" "We don't know."
"What is the effect of varying the dwell time of the plunger at the bottom of the pressing stroke?" "We don't know."
I responded with this, "You guys have been pounding powder for 40 years and you really don't know what it is you are doing!" Were they making junk all this time? No. But they did have a lot of duds and did not know why. These were expert ammunition makers having been doing it since during World War II, and still they did not have all the answers.

During my QA career I came up with this slogan: QAQAQA, The Questioning Approach of Quality Assurance Leads to the Quintessential Answer. I did not need to know the answer beforehand in order the ask the question. I always said one of three things would result whenever I questioned an engineer, production manager, or even a line worker. 1) I learned something; or 2) the person I was questioning would reevaluate their process and make changes to improve it; or 3) in the process of defending the way they did things they reaffirmed the correctness of what they were doing.

Somewhere I read the following bit of wisdom; "The greatest impediment to progress is already having the answer!" Never hesitate to question what anyone says on this forum, but do it in a civil respectful manner. We will all learn more. And once in awhile, even, we may realize we were wrong. I have.

IMS:

That was really interesting. I'm going to use it in my QA class if you don't mind.

 

[UtahPete]

I think a lot of the heated disagreements could be resolved amicably if those posting opinions would; a. Qualify the basis for their opinion (e.g. education, training, observation, personal experience, what their buddies believe, etc) and b. Be willing to differentiate between expertise (i.e. facts and science) vs. strongly held beliefs.

Of course if we could all do that, we wouldn't have a polarized nation, or interesting discussions.

As the French would say, 'vive la difference '

 

[Bob Denman]

 

[Two cats]

There's an "Ignore Button" never new that or even know where it is! Interesting...

yes there is, its called a Off Button. Just look around and you'll find it. If it's on your I phone it called the Ignore button.

 

[Road-Kill]

Arguing over tires?......seriously?
The threads on tires have never devolved into a fight.
If I was at a dinner party and we talked about tires the conversation would sound like a tire thread.
My "arguement" was traction and only requested citations that show its not being lost.:banghead:
Until I read this thread I didn't know a tire thread was deleted.....what ever happened to the ignore button?

 

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: "Tire Thread??

I thought we were talking about "Tire Treads"! :gaah:

 

[Boilermaker]

Can't we all just get along......and move along! :bdh: I think I have gleaned all of the useful information I can get from this thread and will not be coming back to it. I've got better things to do! :riding:

 

[Bob Denman]

I see your signature...


But it's your ride now! That's what matters. :clap: :2thumbs:

 

[ThreeWheels]

:shocked: "Tire Thread??

I thought we were talking about "Tire Treads"! :gaah:

I thought we were talking about TIRED THREADS

 

[Bob Denman]

:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

:firstplace:

 

[RapidSpyder]

I thought we were talking about TIRED THREADS

hey that sounds a lot like some of my clothes...

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

So I ask you this, if someone on the Forum insists over and over and over that they feel changing your Oil isn't really necessary and then resorts to PERSONAL Attacks on those with an opposing opinion, IS THIS OK ??

No!

.... Should those who know better just ignore those who scream the loudest.....after all the knowledgeable ones are going to change their oil, and the ones who don't ( like a Newbie ) will just learn the Hard way ie. engine seizure.....

In the midst of a storm those who know a better way have an obligation to share their knowledge and experience with a calm approach. Humans tend to migrate to the calm, not the storm!

..... I'm an X-LEO with 35 yrs. Ignoring wrongdoing wasn't an option for me then, and it still isn't now..... ( that was an Analogy ) .....Today it seems there are lots of folks whose attitude is " if it doesn't effect me personally,( because I know better ) then I'll just keep my mouth shut.....

In your years as an LEO wrongdoing was primarily defined as violating the law. Most of the time, but not always, the violation would be clear cut, such as driving 55 in a 35 zone, or having an burnt out headlight. Judges are called upon to decide the 'iffy' cases. I was called to jury duty one time for a drunk driving conviction. The prosecutor used a preemption to dismiss me. Why? I can't say for certainty but the defense lawyer questioned me about accuracy of test methods. I think at issue was a citation for drunk driving based on a breathalyzer test showing the driver right at or just above 8.0. I'm sure the defense was going to argue that a test that close to the threshold was not reliable enough for anyone to say with absolute certainty the driver was legally drunk.

In the case of tires there is no clear cut line as to what is wrong and right, or dumb and smart. Undoubtedly dumb would include running 5 psi, or 55 psi, air pressure in any common tire on a Spyder. But at what point does the transition occur between dumb and smart? I dare say that transition is not the same for vehicle A running tire A as for vehicle B running tire A, or vehicle A running tire B. And we know the combinations run from A & A to ZZZZ & ZZZZ and every conceivable combination in between. I'll make some other comments in another post.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

IMS:

That was really interesting. I'm going to use it in my QA class if you don't mind.

Feel free to do so!

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I think a lot of the heated disagreements could be resolved amicably if those posting opinions would; a. Qualify the basis for their opinion (e.g. education, training, observation, personal experience, what their buddies believe, etc) and b. Be willing to differentiate between expertise (i.e. facts and science) vs. strongly held beliefs.

Of course if we could all do that, we wouldn't have a polarized nation, or interesting discussions.

As the French would say, 'vive la difference '

:agree:

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Sounds like the grenade manufacturer needs less tribal / OJT knowledge and more valid employee training, along with an effective, properly accomplished 6S program.

Employee training wasn't the issue. They had that handled well. It was the process variables they didn't have a good handle on. Let's take, for example, the pressing pressure to consolidate the explosive inside the grenade body. I don't remember the actual numbers, if in fact, I ever did, and they might even be classified. Let's say 50 lbs was insufficient to adequately pack the explosive tight enough that it was guaranteed to explode when detonated, and 2000 lbs would cause the explosive to explode during pressing. By experience, and undoubtedly by the munitions engineer's calculations, 1200 was determined to work. My question was then what was the impact on the final product if the pressing pressure was only 1100 lbs, or if it was 1300 lbs? What if the press had an inherent pressure variability of 200 lbs, i.e., one press might be 1000 lbs, next one 1200, and the next one 1400, and so on? They could not tell me what the impact on the final product was with that kind of variability in the process. Perhaps if the press always pressed between 1175 and 1225 99.9999% of the finished grenades would definitely explode when used.

As for the medical stuff, seems side effects and more importantly long term knowledge is something learned outside the lab. Many great products still to this day perform wonderful for what they were designed for, asbestos for example, or leaded paints, but when you add in human factors, the product gets a bad reputation. Drug side effects, I believe sometimes only come to light after real time use over time.

And that is why expert knowledge changes with time and experience.

Tire sizes for 1936 automobiles are not all that different from autos today, but I'll bet the ideal inflation pressures have changed!