Harley Clamping Down on Owners

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

If it weren't ca. doing it then it would be ny
can't wait to retire & move to nc

 

[AAbruzzese]

Its hardly a binary function and no reason to sublimate personal freedom for “societal good”” when the overall benefit to society is minimal.

Far greater percentages of noise and pollution come from diesel trucks than could ever come from cycles which are much more noise and fuel efficient.

You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

 

[Lew L]

We have this fine event in Reno called "Street Vibrations " It's like the Sturgis event but tamer. But it's very loud.

I usually build something or paint the shop and stay out of downtown.

 

[Joe T.]

Sorry, - - - - - -, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

So, how much is that bridge and where is it? I've always wanted my own bridge. I plan to live under it when I become completely senile!!!

Joe T.

 

[Zoot]

You probably do not live close to a neighbor who owns a super loud HD and loves to fire it up at 4:30 in the morning. The main reason I keep hearing is the need for other drivers to hear you when riding.

We've got a lot of HDs around with open pipes. And you know what? If you have a late-model car with the windows rolled up, air on, maybe have the stereo on.... you probably won't notice even the loudest HD coming up on the freeway.

 

[asp125]

My right to own and use aftermarket exhausts shall not be infringed! They'll have to pry my pipes from my cold, dead, hands!

 

[WisconsinDavid]

Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.

 

[canamjhb]

This is not a subject that usually interests me but I do have to chime in here. I find it offensive whe HD riders have to irritate others by blipping the throttle when stopped at a stop light. Just flexing their exhaust. No reason other than trying to be macho. And if loud pipes save lives, why do people ever get hit by trains.... Jim

 

[Jackhartjr]

Before y'all start waxing poetic about how great the EPA and carb laws are, I'll give you some food for thought.
I drive a truck. I actually own it and am pleased to a rather fantastic company.
Mine is a 1998 model with a Detroit Series 60 engine.
Before they started dicking around with pollution crap.
If I had to replace it today, I would be paying more than $50,000.00 for a DEF system that if it has a pr, most mechanics have no clue what to do to fix it other than to throw parts at it, some of those parts cost more than $10,000.00!
The system was rushed into service by an EPA that cares nothing about common sense.

Mow if you are traveling down the road and see a truck puffing out clouds of exhaust that looks like Indian Smoak signals, it it going through what's know as a 'regen.' Roll your windows down and breathe that! Gotta be healthy!
I'm for the environment, however EPA and carb are ridiculous!

 

[UtahPete]

Before y'all start waxing poetic about how great the EPA and carb laws are, I'll give you some food for thought.
I drive a truck. I actually own it and am pleased to a rather fantastic company.
Mine is a 1998 model with a Detroit Series 60 engine.
Before they started dicking around with pollution crap.
If I had to replace it today, I would be paying more than $50,000.00 for a DEF system that if it has a pr, most mechanics have no clue what to do to fix it other than to throw parts at it, some of those parts cost more than $10,000.00!
The system was rushed into service by an EPA that cares nothing about common sense.

Mow if you are traveling down the road and see a truck puffing out clouds of exhaust that looks like Indian Smoak signals, it it going through what's know as a 'regen.' Roll your windows down and breathe that! Gotta be healthy!
I'm for the environment, however EPA and carb are ridiculous!

Just because you don't like it doesn't make the EPA and its regulations 'ridiculous'

 

[UtahPete]

Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.

That is a ridiculous argument and quite unconvincing I think.

 

[Fire34]

I am new to this motorcycle thing, but my question is this. Why do we want loud exhausts? We have a 2013 RTL and it seems pretty loud to me, I do not know if the previous owner did any after market exhaust work on it or not. It looks like the oem tailpipe ? I try and idle into the neighborhood just to not annoy anyone. the neighborhood harley owner does the same. Just wondering Thanks guys

 

[UtahPete]

I am new to this motorcycle thing, but my question is this. Why do we want loud exhausts? We have a 2013 RTL and it seems pretty loud to me, I do not know if the previous owner did any after market exhaust work on it or not. It looks like the oem tailpipe ? I try and idle into the neighborhood just to not annoy anyone. the neighborhood harley owner does the same. Just wondering Thanks guys

Thanks for being responsible and considerate of others.

 

[2dogs]

People who ride with loud pipes are trying to project the image that they are as bad a$$ as their pipes sound. It's just a mental waist basket that only works when they run in large groups. Loud pipes don't bother me much anymore because my hearing is pretty much shot at this point in my life. Maybe it's because I rode loud pipes for too many years. LOL

 

[Bob Denman]

What is the rarest Harley-Davidson?:shocked:


The one that still has the stock exhaust system intact! :roflblack:

 

[KX5062]

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/information-about--off_highway_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.

First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all. :thumbup:

 

[Gwolf]

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

 

[Jackhartjr]

KX5062, you pretty much summed it up perfectly sir!
Thank you!

 

[UtahPete]

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

Go figure!

 

[johnsimion]

See red responses below. Red, you know, as in "Commiefornia." LOL

First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale.

They should be.

OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority.

Speaking as a retired environmental attorney for the U.S. Army, I can categorically state that you are full of baloney. The EPA sets national standards according to statutes passed by Congress. The States implement those standards through a "State Implementation Plan" or SIP. Other than review to ensure the national standards will be met, the State is free to make the SIP however it wants. Enforcement of the SIP is then primarily done by the State unless the State isn't doing what it said it would do in the SIP, in which (rare) case the EPA would step in. In the case of motorcycles and ORVs, California needs to do whatever its approved SIP says ... nothing more.

As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

No, the air is not different in Europe. The point sources are, the weather is different, and the population density is far, far greater. And the air is also the same in China. Perhaps we should adopt Chinese air pollution regulations? And do you really want America to have the same laws and regulations as the rest of the world? Would that not be some sort of World Government that certain paranoid people are always afraid of?

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Oh, right, all the other states are going cede their sovereignty to California. Those black helicopters are probably also part of the conspiracy, along with Ted Cruz's father.


Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

If it's in your state's approved SIP, you have to comply with it. Now, there are other ways to get a SIP to pass EPA approval. The answer here, as with any other law you feel is stupid, is to elect a state legislature and a Governor who want to make those changes, because CARB or ARB or whatever you call it answers to them and ultimately, to the people. The fact that this hasn't happened suggests to me that the majority of people in California either like, or accept, the current system. This is the nature of democracy. If you don't have the votes and you just can't live with it, well then I guess you have to move. Personally I don't live in California but when I go down there, I kind of appreciate the work CARB has done because I can drive through LA (well, at 5 mph) and I don't see huge clouds of smog like you can see in the pictures from the 1970s. You said so yourself, "I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water." It's not like that now. Seems to me that what they do DOES work.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

Sounds like California is trying to save money. As long as what they're doing complies with the SIP, it's legal. And apparently it works. Not quite sure what your complaint is. Are you suggesting they should do a full smog test?

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

I'd like to see your scientific study showing that pollution from ORVs is not measurable. Engine size is irrelevant to the amount of pollution created, as anyone who has ever mowed a lawn with a malfunctioning mower knows. Miles driven? If miles driven is unimportant, then if I only drive 5000 miles a year and you drive 25,000 miles a year, you should be required to produce five times less pollution. Yee-haw, I can take all the anti-pollution stuff off my car and you can't. Great idea, try to enforce it. Then you cite mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight and I read that and think, "Huh?" Pollution is pollution, no matter what produces it.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

If the government cheats and isn't responsive, there's a way to change that. I noticed you still don't know the difference between Communism and democracy, continuing to call it "Commiefornia" even though California unlike Communism allows you to vote for your representatives and Governor who actually control CARB. If you don't vote, you get what you deserve. And if the majority vote doesn't give you what you want, you have to live with it. It's democracy. Majority rules. Try it.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all. :thumbup: