Guess when I used Premium vs Regular

[RinconRyder]

No it does not.

There is only ONE way and that is to retard the timing to prevent "spark knock".

Unless it has computer controlled individual valve timing, there is NOTHING the control systems can do to prevent "pre-ignition" ..........that happens before the spake hits. That is, I presume, why they recommend higher octane fuel.

I concur. Valve timing is used to obtain better fuel mileage and/or increased power output and does not affect denotation.

Denotation is cured by slowing the fuel burn (so it doesn't explode which is the sound you hear) and/or reducing the compression ratio.

 

[johnsimion]

Stupid Question Dept.

Hello, I'm new to Spyder but this thread raised questions in my mind. My Spyder is a new 2017 and my dealer outright told me to use Premium. According to my manual, "Use premium unleaded gasoline with an AKI (RON+MON/2) octane rating of 91, or a RON octane rating of 95." It goes on and says, "NOTICE. Never experiment with other fuels. Engine or fuel system damage may occur with the use of an inadequate fuel." It also notifies me not to use E85.

Did the fuel requirements change over the years? In my area, premium unleaded is 91 octane. Given the manual's warnings, why would I even try regular? Sure, it's **probably** okay but why would I take chances? Why would I risk my warranty to save a few cents?

 

[ruralgirl]

I'm sure from a sales point of view, BRP would love to be able to boast that the Spyder can run on regular, but using fast burning gas in a high compression ration engine is flirting with engine knock as its flame-front across the cylinder creates an explosion point which can ultimately ruin your engine in multiple ways. The Spyder was designed for premium gas, so that's what I always use.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Given the manual's warnings, why would I even try regular? Sure, it's **probably** okay but why would I take chances? Why would I risk my warranty to save a few cents?

Valid question, and you are in the majority for sure. On the other side are a number of owners who vigorously argue that real world experience has shown that regular works just fine with many thousands of miles on their machines. As far as I know no one has dismantled two different Spyder engines, both with like maybe 100,000 miles on them, one having run regular the whole time, and the other premium. Until someone does that and provides photos of what the engines look like on the inside the argument one way or the other has to be based on what the builders say to do.

There are many here who through the years have argued why try to save a few pennies by using regular when premium gives added gas mileage that offsets the additional cost. The other side of the argument is that since it appears regular works just fine why not save money on gas? For some folks just because they have a Spyder doesn't mean their wallets are flush with cash.

And then there have been many discussions about MPG and what impacts it. I posted the graphs and started this thread to show the fallacy of arguing MPG. It's just too variable to provide any reliable and meaningful information about different fuels, road conditions, towing situations, and on and on!

In the end do what fits inside your comfort zone and don't let anyone dissuade you.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Correction about pulling trailer

I also had one long trip pulling a trailer. Can you tell when it was?

Correction! I actually had two long trips and one short trip pulling a trailer.

 

[Easy Rider]

Why would I risk my warranty to save a few cents?

Given the survey results, it seems that most Spyder owners agree with you.

BUT.....among other things some people seem to take some kind of perverse pride in "outsmarting" the Engineers.

In my opinion, it is their property and they can do whatever they want to with it BUT they should not be encouraging others to take a risk that they may not fully understand.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Two more days to vote!

Just bringing this to top for those who may have missed it earlier. Poll closes the 10th. Look at the graphs and see if you can tell when I used regular and when I used premium, if in fact I have used both!

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Less than one day left!

CORRECTION: Poll closes tomorrow, 11/09, at 4:01 PM.

 

[bscrive]

I have always used regular gas without any issues on all our bikes.

The way I look at it is that regular gas is probably replenished faster that all the other types of grades, so you get fresher fuel each time you fill up. The other grades may sit in the gas station's tanks longer possibly collecting water.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

And the answer is!!!

This has been an interesting thread, for me anyway! As I've mentioned before I wanted to show just how variable MPG is. If you want to get a somewhat accurate reading of your Spyder's MPG over the long term you need to look at the all miles over the all gallons numbers. Any short period isn't going to be meaningful at all, IMO. The all miles average smooths out the variation due to driving conditions and habits.

I goofed on the graph for All Miles Average MPG. I used a wrong number for the beginning of the graph. I should have looked at it closer right from the start since it didn't quite make sense that the early overall MPG was so low. I'm surprised no one asked about it. Here's a corrected graph. The impact of the mistake is very little from about 9000 miles on. Since tank to tank MPG varies widely the MPG for the first few hundred miles also varied widely. That's why the graph starts at about 700 miles. After about 9000 miles the MPG stays quite constant.



Take a look at these graphs. They show my MPG while pulling my tent-on-a-trailer on two long trips in 2016 and one ~1000 mile trip in 2017. As you can see the 2017 MPG doesn't vary as much as the 2016. That's for two reasons. First there are fewer fill ups represented, and second, the 2017 trip was all 2 lane highways, much at speeds less than 50 mph.





If you look at the 4 Fill MPG graph the higher MPGs mostly were when I was on two lane roads riding about 60 mph and below. The low MPG are mostly Interstate roads at 70 mph and above. The really low numbers were when I was bucking strong head winds. This is the case whether or not I was pulling my trailer.

Now, before I tell you which poll option best matches my fuel selection for the two riding seasons take another look at the 4 Fill MPG graph.



What can you tell about when I used regular and when I used premium? 68 percent of you selected the option of premium for both seasons.

Go to the next post for the answer!!

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Now for the answer!

For me, this has been a real hoot!!

Many of you aren't going to want to believe this, BUT......

The poll option that most closely matches my fuel selection over the 2016 and 2017 riding seasons is ---------

The option that got ZERO VOTES!!

That's right. I ran premium all the time (unless it wasn't available which was very seldom) until about 15,000 miles when I switched to regular on my trip to Homecoming. My nephew who went with me to Homecoming said he runs regular all the time in his 2010 RT and has experienced no problems, so I decided to see what the result would be for me. Since I haven't had any reason to tear down the engine, and have no plans to do so, I cannot say what the effect has been inside the engine. But I will unequivocally say premium does not give better gas mileage!

I hope all of you have enjoyed this exercise!

 

[JIM W]

The only reason I use premium is because it's the only fuel I can get without ethanol!
that crap destroys seals.

 

[Easy Rider]

The only reason I use premium is because it's the only fuel I can get without ethanol!
that crap destroys seals.

No it does not. Not in an engine that was designed for it, that is.
So that means any engine made in the past 35 years or so.

Note: cheap Chinese two-cycle engines are another story.

 

[Wildrice]

No it does not. Not in an engine that was designed for it, that is.
So that means any engine made in the past 35 years or so.

Note: cheap Chinese two-cycle engines are another story.

Don't use ethanol in your lawn mower or other small engines that use a spring return on a rubber type diaphragm. Large engines with a fuel pump can usually handle it but ethanol with distort the small engine rubber diaphragm even on current yr small engines. I know it has nothing to do with Spyders but ethanol will need a carb rebuild after a few months--I'm speaking from experience. Maybe those engines were built in China:bowdown::clap:Briggs & Stratton.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Don't use ethanol in your lawn mower or other small engines that use a spring return on a rubber type diaphragm. Large engines with a fuel pump can usually handle it but ethanol with distort the small engine rubber diaphragm even on current yr small engines. I know it has nothing to do with Spyders but ethanol will need a carb rebuild after a few months--I'm speaking from experience. Maybe those engines were built in China:bowdown::clap:Briggs & Stratton.

B & S doesn't agree with you. https://www.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/support/faqs/browse/fuel-recommendations.html

Gasoline with up to 10% ethanol (gasohol) or up to 15% MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), is acceptable. Some fuel stations are now selling gasoline with up to 15% ethanol. This E15 product is not recommended or approved for use in small engines.

BTW, B & S engines are made in USA, believe it or not. At least that's what they say on their web site! Well at least 90% + are US made from what I find. They have 10 plants in foreign countries, I think mostly making engines using brand names other than B & S.

 

[Easy Rider]

Maybe those engines were built in China:bowdown::clap:Briggs & Stratton.

Having an "American" company name on it does not say anything about where it was built.....so you might be right.

Just for the record, I have been using regular E10 in all of my small engines ever since it came out.
That includes probably 30 different ones over more than 30 years.
Never had ANY problems with anything but grass trimmers and chain saws. It's hard to find those things that are not cheaply made.

For my other things.......lawn mowers mostly, I don't buy cheap stuff and kind of got away from B&S a LONG time ago.
With Kohler or Kawasaki engines, I've had ZERO trouble, with just a tiny bit of good fuel management practices.

 

[Wildrice]

B & S doesn't agree with you. https://www.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/support/faqs/browse/fuel-recommendations.html


I had a 15 yr old Craftsman riding mower. The neighbor would borrow it on occassion & used the 10% ethanol. Two (2) times after she used it approx 2-3 months later--the vacuum operated fuel pump in the carb--the rubber type material distorted. But that was from 15 yrs ago on a Briggs & Stratton Engine. The diaphragm material must have upgraded on newer models. Replaced it last yr with a Cub Cadet 46" Kohler 7000 Series twin cyl. I agree on the B & S but the engine was still running fine--the deck was the maintenance issue. I bought the Cub Cadet because the deck was one (1) gauge thicker than other mfgs. Plus the mulching was best in the reviews.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/manufacturer_fuel_recommendations_ethanol_e10.html

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html

Darrell

 

[Wildrice]

E85 vs. Gasoline Comparison Test

Very interesting comparison on run between Calif to Las Vegas


https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-econom...Jjmh84QOB-6ETcOSqtDQXBuVDipzGfnQaAii_EALw_wcB

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Very interesting comparison on run between Calif to Las Vegas


https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-econom...Jjmh84QOB-6ETcOSqtDQXBuVDipzGfnQaAii_EALw_wcB

First, based on my experience with my Spyder MPG their test was far too short to really be meaningful.

It's not specifically mentioned in the article but it sounds like they were comparing non-ethanol regular with E15. For that type of comparison to have any real meaning today you'd need to have comparisons of E10 vs E15 and each E version against non-ethanol. Given the lower energy output and lower MPG of E10, when compared to non-E I'm doubtful of any cost savings with non-E. Every pump of non-E regular I've seen is higher priced than premium.

The move to E gas was prompted in large part to high levels of imported oil, the fact that corn is home grown, and its ability to boost octane number and help with emission control. One of the drives to E15 is to get more power via compression boost. The original octane booster, tetraethyl lead, is an environmental poison. I read years ago that traces of lead have been found on high mountain top water sources. The only place it could have come from was vapor from gasoline burned in vehicles. The replacement for ethyl was MTBE, but it too is an environmental pollutant when gasoline containing it leaks into the ground, not an uncommon problem.

As an octane booster and oxygenator, and having a lower pollution factor, ethanol looks to be the best choice. From the standpoint of energy output, not including the argument it takes more energy to produce it than it produces, and the impact on food supply, it is a poor choice. As in all things of life, there are no easy answers! :banghead:

 

[UtahPete]

As an octane booster and oxygenator, and having a lower pollution factor, ethanol looks to be the best choice. From the standpoint of energy output, not including the argument it takes more energy to produce it than it produces, and the impact on food supply, it is a poor choice.

I didn't know that. Thanks.