GS vs F3 question

[pauly1]

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of power. Horsepower is a measure of power or work, torque is a measure of force.
Horsepower, irrespective of RPM is what matters, that's why all industrial equipment is rated in horsepower. You van use gear reduction to create torque, but not horsepower.

FWIW - There is little to suggest the F3 is faster than the early RS / GS - The Extra weight of the F3 is not compensated for by an extra 9 horsepower IMO.

Who is misunderstanding what? Without torque, horsepower is not possible. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0401-torque-horsepower-guide/ A 16K RPM Indy or F1 motor which will product horsepower but wouldn't out accelerate a big displacement but equal horsepower motor.

Wayne

 

[isthatahemi]

Who is misunderstanding what? Without torque, horsepower is not possible. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0401-torque-horsepower-guide/ A 16K RPM Indy or F1 motor which will product horsepower but wouldn't out accelerate a big displacement but equal horsepower motor.

Wayne

So that's why torqueless Indy cars are some of the fastest road vehicles in the world.

Your comment was "torque wins races". You could have 400 ft/lbs of torque in an engine, and have 50 horsepower. An engine with 80 hp with 80ft/lbs would clobber it, at any speed other than seen in first gear.
But yes, an engine with the same horsepower, and more torque will be quicker, generally speaking.

Back to the topic at hand - On the traction impaired Spyder, I can't see more torque helping very much, especially in a heavier chassis, and more to the point, BRP does not claim it's faster. They are appealing to the more "overtly expressive" rider.

 

[pauly1]

I stated, "HP is for show but torque moves the load." You extrapolated from there.

Also, I stated "A 16K RPM Indy or F1 motor which will product horsepower but wouldn't out accelerate a big displacement but equal horsepower motor." which apparently you didn't read as you restated that same principle. So, we're saying the same thing only different.

An Indy or F1 car are fast, too, because they are aerodynamic and LIGHT! But given the same tires and body setup, I'll take a NASCAR-motored vehicle to get through a quarter mile before a smaller displacement/lower torqued Indy engine. Hp to weight ratios are much different for the two types of cars.

Indy motors are 234 cu in, w/horsepower of 550 - 700 @ 12K rpm, dependent on turbo boost pressure. The cars weigh 1575 lb. NASCAR is 725 hp, naturally aspirated, 358 cu in. The cars weighs about 3300 lb, minimum.

"quick" and "fast" are different but related, as is torque and horsepower. I can be fast but not quick, just as quick but not fast (is that half fast?). To a similar extent, and as you stated, I can have torque (such as an old "B" John Deere diesel tractor) but not horsepower.

Horsepower is a measure of work, 33K lb*ft of work per minute. Therefore, 0 torque produces no work and no horsepower. I've got to have potential before I can have horsepower.

As far as industrial motors, I assume electric motors, and further assumed to be AC current motors. They are rated in hp but also have to have an inherent torque at the rated RPM and hp. One does not create torque by gearing, rather it is amplified through mechanical advantage of the gear ratio.

Wayne

 

[Bob Denman]

:agree: Thanks for a solid explanation... :clap:
This is also one of the reasons that BRP tuned the original 991 series engines for 6 less horsepower, but 3 lb/ft of more torque: they moved the powerband almost 1,000 rpm lower for more useable real-world power. :thumbup:

 

[isthatahemi]

Here is the math for those who don't care for the about some of the gobbledegook that has been posted to confuse.

500ft/lbs@ 2000 rpm (~190hp), is half the (horse)power of 500ft/lbs at 4000 rpm (~381hp), and through gear reduction, you can multiply the latter amount of torque into 1000ft/lbs at 2000rpms. Torque is a nothing number, it is force, not work or motion. I can generate 500 ft/lbs torque with a large breaker bar. It won't move anything quickly.
As it relates to the above example, all else being equal, except the gear ratio (torque multiplication), an engine with 200ft/lbs torque at 6000 rpms will be faster. Quit often "torque" as cited will reflect on how effortless the work will be perceived in an automobile.

Horsepower states what the ability to do work is, whether that work is pump water, accelerate mass, or whatever you use it for. How much can my 500ft/lbs of torque do when I crank with a wrench? And all industrial engines are rated in hp because the torque rating is meaningless for doing work.

Anyhow, lets move on.

 

[pauly1]

Thanks for contributing to the gobbledegook.

Wayne

 

[Peter Aawen]

The adage "HP is for show, Torque moves the load" is a pretty good 'simplification' for those who don't want/couldn't handle the full & technical explanation....

BUUUUTTT, I like this one better:


HP is how fast you hit a tree; Torque is how far you move it!!

 

[Deer Slayer]

I can't see that the pulled back, feet forward riding position can be conducivice to twisty road riding? I would love to see the RS-S type with the F3 type engine. True the F3 has 15 more hp than the RS-S /GS, but it is 50 lbs more weight? Power to weight ratio, the F3 is at a loss.:shocked:

 

[Dennis in Lodi]

Thanks for the link

I read this link from end to end. Enjoyed the comments from the best engine builders in the world. I learned Torque and HP are married across a complicated spectrum of variables for what the engine's ultimate goal is. The F3 should have a street advantage while powering out of curves. The GS should have a quicker hit and the feel it is going faster. Basicaly a wash as neither will outrun the other. In the end the F3 gets my nod because you will be shifting less.

Who is misunderstanding what? Without torque, horsepower is not possible. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0401-torque-horsepower-guide/ A 16K RPM Indy or F1 motor which will product horsepower but wouldn't out accelerate a big displacement but equal horsepower motor.

Wayne

 

[sandeejs]

I Don't Know......

But, I'm frequently asked if how fast my RT can go. I have to reply that I would never speed, because that is illegal. However, I once accidentally went 80 mph.

~Sandee~

 

[jcthorne]

I once accidentally had my F3 wound up to 127....

 

[Bob Denman]

I can't see that the pulled back, feet forward riding position can be conducivice to twisty road riding? I would love to see the RS-S type with the F3 type engine. True the F3 has 15 more hp than the RS-S /GS, but it is 50 lbs more weight? Power to weight ratio, the F3 is at a loss.:shocked:

There's more to it than the riding position... The repackaging of the components has resulted in a lower center of gravity... :clap::yes::thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

There's more to it than the riding position... The repackaging of the components has resulted in a lower center of gravity... :clap::yes::thumbup:

Wow! That sounds PAINFUL! Isn't that what Bruce Jenner did? :yikes:

 

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: Yes; but her "re-packaging" was for aesthetic reasons; NOT for better handling!

 

[Pirate looks at --]

Once

I once accidentally had my F3 wound up to 127....

I once accidentally had my RTL up to 100 two up!:roflblack:

 

[joet82]

I haven't personally timed it, but after calling 911 on sunday to report a brush fire on the side of I-5, I went from a dead stop to highway speed (70-75) easily in under 4 seconds. 2nd and 3rd were the gears I used, then once I was at speed, shifted all the way to 6th (YAY MANUAL!). can't wait to find a track here in the PNW that will let me run it so I can get times in the 1/4 mile.

 

[wyliec]

I haven't personally timed it, but after calling 911 on sunday to report a brush fire on the side of I-5, I went from a dead stop to highway speed (70-75) easily in under 4 seconds. 2nd and 3rd were the gears I used, then once I was at speed, shifted all the way to 6th (YAY MANUAL!). can't wait to find a track here in the PNW that will let me run it so I can get times in the 1/4 mile.

If you haven't personally timed it, how do you know? Was it seat of the pants?

 

[Bob Denman]

They call this, "Mahogany Ridge" racing...

 

[joet82]

If you haven't personally timed it, how do you know? Was it seat of the pants?

yes, it was the situation where you are waiting for a spot in traffic to open up, you see it...gun it...then when you get up to speed and you get into 6th gear, you realize, "Holy crap, that was like 3 seconds." lol

which is why I want to get it to a track/drag strip to find out what it can do when actually timed.

 

[Darren111]

I am buying F3 based on looks, sorry should say "badass" looks, rarity on UK roads, something different, something that will make me feel special. How fast it goes is irrelevant to me, because all I want to do on it is cruise and watch the admiring glances from members of the public.:doorag: