FYI on 2013 alignment procedures

[Lamonster]

With the recent post about handling and alinement on the 2013 Roadsters I thought I would fill in the gaps without going into too many details.

First off the 2013 geometry is very different from the 2012 and earlier Spyders. The alinement has to be done as BRP spells out or you will make a bad situation worst.

If you check the alinement on a 2013 Spyder you'll find that the wheels are towed in if the unit is unloaded (no rider or gear). If you correct that using the old alinement procedures you'll wind up with a unit that is toed out when the bike is loaded (I know it's not a bike). BRP has sent out struts that replace the shocks when doing alinement on the 2013 units. This simulates a loaded condition. Here's a question I asked about why there was no adjustment on the 2013 Spyders.

Question- I understand that the geometry has totally changed but I don't understand why the riders weight doesn't come into play on preload and why is there still preload adjustment on the Fox shocks on the RS-S?

Answer- The reason the RS-S kept its adjustable Fox shocks is due to model option carry-over from the previous years. The reason the other models don't have pre-load adjustment is because the 2013 shocks have gone through extensive calibration to support from the lightest to the heaviest drivers and vehicle loads in various normal driving conditions (keeping in mind that each model has a maximum load capacity).

So now we know the reasoning behind this but what else has changed? For sure we know that some units got sent out with a bad batch of lower ball joints. This was complicating the dealers attempt to correct any handling issues a 2013 might be having and if they were doing the alinement the 2008-2012 way it was making matters worst.

The procedure now calls for using struts or alinement bars for both the RS/ST and RT. There is a different part number for both. Your dealer should have those by now.

They also require a dot laser instead of a line laser. The dot laser has proven to be more accurate.

The laser measurement is now taken in three places front to back meaning the rotor is rotated so that the measurements are done in thirds and then an average is take from all three measurements. This is done in three places to the back and three places to the front for both wheels so they are taking twelve measurements and using those for the correction number. Like I said this is far more involved than before.

Now you have an idea what your dealer is going through when they have a handling issue on the 2013. First the lower ball joints need to be replaced. That should solve 99% of the issues if they have one and if not they need to check the alinement next. Hope this helps you to understand what's going on a little better. :doorag:

 

[jerpinoy]

I'm sure all 2013 models owners got this info. I hope things will be better for all:spyder2:.

 

[Marker]

Thanks for your posting Lamont. Confirms the need for competent dealers to do the work or the handling issuers will never be corrected.

 

[ARtraveler]

This explains a lot of the behind the scenes stuff that we did not have much knowledge about.

Also shows the importance of having a good tech work on the bikes. IMO.

 

[dabreitbach]

With the recent post about handling and alinement on the 2013 Roadsters I thought I would fill in the gaps without going into too many details.

First off the 2013 geometry is very different from the 2012 and earlier Spyders. The alinement has to be done as BRP spells out or you will make a bad situation worst.

If you check the alinement on a 2013 Spyder you'll find that the wheels are towed in if the unit is unloaded (no rider or gear). If you correct that using the old alinement procedures you'll wind up with a unit that is toed out when the bike is loaded (I know it's not a bike). BRP has sent out struts that replace the shocks when doing alinement on the 2013 units. This simulates a loaded condition. Here's a question I asked about why there was no adjustment on the 2013 Spyders.

Question- I understand that the geometry has totally changed but I don't understand why the riders weight doesn't come into play on preload and why is there still preload adjustment on the Fox shocks on the RS-S?

Answer- The reason the RS-S kept its adjustable Fox shocks is due to model option carry-over from the previous years. The reason the other models don't have pre-load adjustment is because the 2013 shocks have gone through extensive calibration to support from the lightest to the heaviest drivers and vehicle loads in various normal driving conditions (keeping in mind that each model has a maximum load capacity).

So now we know the reasoning behind this but what else has changed? For sure we know that some units got sent out with a bad batch of lower ball joints. This was complicating the dealers attempt to correct any handling issues a 2013 might be having and if they were doing the alinement the 2008-2012 way it was making matters worst.

The procedure now calls for using struts or alinement bars for both the RS/ST and RT. There is a different part number for both. Your dealer should have those by now.

They also require a dot laser instead of a line laser. The dot laser has proven to be more accurate.

The laser measurement is now taken in three places front to back meaning the rotor is rotated so that the measurements are done in thirds and then an average is take from all three measurements. This is done in three places to the back and three places to the front for both wheels so they are taking twelve measurements and using those for the correction number. Like I said this is far more involved than before.

Now you have an idea what your dealer is going through when they have a handling issue on the 2013. First the lower ball joints need to be replaced. That should solve 99% of the issues if they have one and if not they need to check the alinement next. Hope this helps you to understand what's going on a little better. :doorag:

God I hope this all works out fine later down the road and this new front end doesn't jump up and bite them in the butt. This seams way too complicated and prone to alot of problems in the real world as the miles rack up and average wear sets inray:ray:ray:. Just how touchy is this front end?? and no adjustability for real world driving and/or drivers.

 

[Lamonster]

God I hope this all works out fine later down the road and this new front end doesn't jump up and bite them in the butt. This seams way too complicated and prone to alot of problems in the real world as the miles rack up and average wear sets inray:ray:ray:. Just how touchy is this front end?? and no adjustability for real world driving and/or drivers.

The front end is not "touchy" and I'm a real world driver and have about 5,000 miles on ST's now. I have no reason to think this is going to be any different than any other unit other than it was to be setup right to start with. Part's wearout on anything and that point you can replace them with stock parts or replace them with aftermarket, I wouldn't make this out to more than it is. I'm just trying to explain the difference from the previous units.

 

[Jeriatric]

Sounds like BRP nailed it on how to correct the problem(s). Just hope some of the dealers don't try to take short cuts in the process.

Any idea how long it takes to do a complete alignment check and adjustment on the 13's?

 

[weapon]

Thanks for spending some time to explain in more detail.:thumbup:

 

[Chupaca]

Thanks..!!

Thanks for posting this information. Hope it helps those impatient ones understand the problem. Once tuned in they will have a :cus: of a ryde..!! :thumbup:

 

[Bob Denman]

Thanks Lamont; your explanation makes all of this a lot clearer! :2thumbs: :clap: :firstplace:

 

[mjw930]

Lamont,

Do you know if there are camber and caster settings as well as toe on the new design? Toe in is only one factor that can effect directional stability. In fact, caster has a much greater effect on tracking than toe in.

 

[Lamonster]

Lamont,

Do you know if there are camber and castor settings as well as toe on the new design? Toe in is only one factor that can effect directional stability. In fact, castor has a much greater effect on tracking than toe in.

Caster is not adjustable and changes with the load. I don't know why it's not adjustable but guys a lot smarter than me seem to think it's fine the way it is. :dontknow:

 

[Bob Denman]

I don't know why it's not adjustable but guys a lot smarter than me seem to think it's fine the way it is. :dontknow:

The K.I.S.S. principle as applied to consumer products.
"The more you give them; the more they can monkey it up!" :roflblack:

 

[mjw930]

Well, considering the trouble they are having with dealers being able to set toe-in it's not surprising they keep the adjustments to a minimum. As long as they keep the frame tolerances in check it shouldn't need to be adjusted if the initial build falls within spec.

It's interesting that caster changes under suspension deflection, typically only camber changes but the requirements for stability are a whole lot different than on a 4 wheel vehicle. That's why I always get a kick out of the aftermarket conversions. There's so much involved in doing this right that a custom shop simply can't accomplish.

 

[bikeguy]

Thanks for the explanation, Lamont, it clears up some of the questions about the 2013's and problems some folks are having with them. I have to believe that a really competent dealer with trained and experienced mechanics should be able to solve most, maybe all, of the problems that have been reported. Even so, I still don't understand the reasoning behind removing the pre-load adjustments which, more than anything else, simply allow a rider to adjust to his/her own riding style and preferences.

It all makes me like my 2010 base RT more than ever. With the addition of BajaRon's aftermarket swaybar, it handles about as well as a 3 wheeler can ever be expected to handle and certainly is capable of pushing my limited riding skills to their limits. I hope it lasts forever. At my current rate of about 11,000 miles per year, I'll only have a little over 300,000 miles on it when I get to be 100 years old. I hate to admit it, but I never planned on riding much past that age, anyway.

Cotton

 

[Bob Denman]

It all makes me like my 2010 base RT more than ever. With the addition of BajaRon's aftermarket swaybar, it handles about as well as a 3 wheeler can ever be expected to handle and certainly is capable of pushing my limited riding skills to their limits.

:agree: You and me both!! :thumbup: hyea::yes:hyea:

 

[bscrive]

Caster is not adjustable and changes with the load. I don't know why it's not adjustable but guys a lot smarter than me seem to think it's fine the way it is. :dontknow:

I think the reason there is no camber adjustment is because you would not be able to do the alignment the way they do it now. It would take a REAL electronic alignment machine and most dealers would not invest the money to get one because of the cost. Setting toe is easy as apposed to having to set toe, caster and camber. My cousin is a front end mechanic and as soon as the snow goes away I am going to bring the wife's Spyder in to hook it up to his alignment machine to see what the specs are on it. Her's seem to set up well so it should give some sort of baseline.

 

[Lamonster]

I think the reason there is no camber adjustment is because you would not be able to do the alignment the way they do it now. It would take a REAL electronic alignment machine and most dealers would not invest the money to get one because of the cost. Setting toe is easy as apposed to having to set toe, caster and camber. My cousin is a front end mechanic and as soon as the snow goes away I am going to bring the wife's Spyder in to hook it up to his alignment machine to see what the specs are on it. Her's seem to set up well so it should give some sort of baseline.

If you don't have the right struts to set ride height it won't matter what it reads unloaded.

 

[JkRbbt]

Sounds like BRP nailed it on how to correct the problem(s). Just hope some of the dealers don't try to take short cuts in the process.

Any idea how long it takes to do a complete alignment check and adjustment on the 13's?

Just took my RT in for the ball joint replacement. My dealer told me they would swap the joints and see how it handles. If no problem, we are good to go. If it's still not right, they will do the alignment. The reason they are hesitant to jump right in on the alignment is, the ball joints take care of most problems and the alignment takes about 4 hours of which they are reimbursed 1 1/2 hours for warranty by BRP. Here's hopin' I'm good to go by tonight!

 

[Jeriatric]

Just took my RT in for the ball joint replacement. My dealer told me they would swap the joints and see how it handles. If no problem, we are good to go. If it's still not right, they will do the alignment. The reason they are hesitant to jump right in on the alignment is, the ball joints take care of most problems and the alignment takes about 4 hours of which they are reimbursed 1 1/2 hours for warranty by BRP. Here's hopin' I'm good to go by tonight!

Thanks for this. :thumbup:


deletion because I failed to see the reply quote.....duh!