Fuel type---

[Dan_Ashley]

So then there is no difference between 85, 87, 89, 91, 93 or 101 octane or diesel fuels by your statement. It simply is not true. Did you ever see all the different storage tanks...

That is not what she meant. ...but you already knew that, did't you?

 

[OwnerOfHarriet]

Sinclair. Wow! Didn't know they were still around. :thumbup: Tom :f_spider:

I see quite a few Sinclears in the midwest -- we just had 2 open up in the last year locally -- I love the dinosaur logo -- reminds of the Flying A logo from long ago.

 

[carbonation]

Gasoline Octane
Let me just pull the pin and through this out there.
A lot of the the new bike owners manuals will say that you have to have 94 octane which is a lie, if you believe this then you are just going into the game with half of the information, be realistic about your bikes.
The standard hip pocket rule of thumb for octane is if your bike or car is not pre detonating then use the lowest octane available, octane to put it in gentleman's terms can be loosely called " The Resistance to Detonation of any fuel", and the best example I can give you is if you take a pie pan of gasoline that is 87 octane and a pie pan of gasoline that is 94 octane, you put them on the floor of your garage and you approach each one of them with a lit match, the 87 octane will detonate further away than the 94 octane, so gas is formulated to have a greater resistance to detonation the higher the number, and the number comes from an old thing that was called the "Anti Knock Index" because older cars over time would have the valves go out of adjustment, heads would leak, air would get into the motor.......and when the air would come in it would actually make your car run hotter, and to lower the temperatures in our cylinders we would put in higher octane gas, so if your car was knocking or running on after you turned the key off in the 50's, 60"s & 70's the solution for that was to put more expensive and higher octane gas in your tank.
Lead was always in gasoline back then as a lubricant, but they would use things like seetane and later on toluane and other octane modifiers, and these octane modifiers were put in to artificially pump the octane number up on what the regular chemical composition of gasoline would be.
Believe it or not one of the best octane boosters is water, and old trick used by old diesel mechanics, because of the hydrogen chain of water being H2O.....there is 2 hydrogens and 1 oxygen, if you have an old diesel engine that needs to have the heads cleaned, one of the Hail Maries was to spray some water through an atomizer bottle or spray bottle into the intake track of a diesel and what it would do is it would crank up the octane in the diesel fuel going in and it would burn out all of the carbon deposits inside the motor, but it is actually pretty dangerous and it can scatter a motor while your spraying it to explosive results.

Only use 87 octane fuel in your motorcycles regardless of what the owners Manuel says, if you use any thing higher then the ethanol will chemically retard the timing of the engine which is actually alcohol poisoning.
Higher octane does not burn cleaner as the petroleum companies would have you believe.

It is not about the ethanol percentage because 94% octane does not contain more ethanol than 87% octane, it is about the ability to burn the gas versus the ethanol ratio in it.
Ethanol is hydroscopic meaning it brings in more moisture.

There are 2 methods of determining the octane number, one is the RON and the other is the MON, some countries use the RON exclusively and some countries use the MON exclusively. In the United States we use an average between the 2 numbers so the next time you are pumping gas for your bike or car look at the pump and it will say 87 octane RM/2 and what that means is that there adding the research number R+M/2 to the mechanical number and they are dividing it by 2, so they are giving you an average between the RON number and the MON number, now when you are looking at your owners manual for your Japanese or European motorcycle it is going to have a higher octane number and sometimes these manuals for bikes and cars specify a higher grade of gas because they have a higher cylinder compression and they are going to need 98 octane fuel, well 98 octane in the European system translates to our system in the United States to about 91 or 92 octane, so you are not buying the wrong gas and you are not going to damage your vehicle, the gas that is sold in Europe is the same gas that is sold here in the states they just have a different method of measuring the octane number.

Every company that makes their money selling additives have tested out fuel, so if you use 87 octane in your motorcycle you will not get a single horsepower number higher on a dynamometer running 94 octane through your bike than you will running 87 octane it just does not work that way.
If you are going to over build your motor, if you are going to run a high compression motor, if you are going to alter the timing to fire that spark plug at a point where the piston is higher and therefore the fuel is under higher compression then you do have to start using a higher octane fuel or you will pre detonate, so simply put if you've got a tuned motor or if your motor is under a high heat high stress application then it is ok to run a higher octane fuel to help counter the effects of cylinder pressure and heat.
If you put a higher octane fuel in a bike that clearly does not need it you are doing your bike a disservice, and you are doing 2 things to it, 1 is you are making the oil companies really happy and we all know they need more money..... Right? But really what you are doing is chemically altering the timing of your bike, if you have points or fuel injection with a computer your spark is set to fire or go off at a certain time that is all based on the appropriate fuel for your vehicle and when you start changing the formulation of that and you start putting high octane fuel in then what you are doing is chemically retarding your timing because let's say now instead of that thing firing at 18 degrees before top dead center now in fact it is going to have to turn further, the crank will turn further, the pistons will go higher before it actually sets off the explosion because high octane gas has a greater resistance to detonation and compression, so now you have just messed with the timing of your vehicle.......spark will happen and ignition will happen but the time it takes because lower octane fuel burns hotter faster and higher octane burns slower and will take a longer amount of time before it lights up, spark and timing is the same but the flash over, the amount of time it takes to flash or fire up is changing and taking longer and is occurring later and that will give you the same effect as if you then further retarded your timing.

With the current junk fuels blends they are selling us there is 20% less gas in your gas today than there was 10 years ago, between oxygenation and ethanol MTBE and all these things that are in the fuel they are taking the place that gas used to be and as we did that a lot of these components and chemical recipes that are in your fuel are there to pump up the octane that we lost when we started putting ethanol and oxygen in the fuel, and now gas does not last anymore, it used to last a couple of years but now within 30, 60, 90 days it smells like varnish and the bikes won't run right.

Oh boy, so many misconceptions and mistakes in this post.

Bottom line, Can Am recommends 91 or better, with 87 being acceptable in North America. Premium is recommended for optimum performance.
That's in the book, and on the CanAm manual page on the web.
If you run 87, timing will be slightly retarded IF spark knock (ping) is detected by the knock sensor.
There is a certain amount of truth when Mobil, or Amoco advertises that premium fuels can clean up fuel systems and keep them clean. In some/most majors, there are extra additives added to premium to exceed top tier specs.

I run premium, and ethanol free if it's available.

 

[ARtraveler]

This thread dates back to 2015. It is very interesting to read the replies again. And a few of us have actually changed what we originally posted earlier.

Welcome to 2/10/20. Mine was one of the early posts on this thread.

Forgive me...for I have changed my mind. I am now a low octane (87)/10% ethanol user :bowdown:

For the last three years or so, I have changed to 87 (the lowest available in most cases) octane. I notice NO change in performance. One other person (well known to most) has stated that it is because of the EFI system. In AK...there was no ethanol added.

May of 2019 I moved to AR. I still use 87 octane and now it has 10% ethanol in it. My car, the Vulcan, and 2014 1330 and now the F3 all use the same....WITH NO NOTICABLE (TO ME) IMPAIRMENT TO THE PERFORMANCE OF ANY OF THE ENGINES. I have never heard a knock from any of them. Linda accuses me of driving to peppy and fast when we are riding the Spyders.

Now that the thread has been revived (sort of), let the fireworks begin...again. :roflblack:

 

[Spyderman2018]

I use 91 ethanol free whenever I can. Bike LOVES it...…...

 

[troop]

I also run 87 octane/10% ethanol during the riding season without issues/concerns. When the season is winding down and the rides are less frequent, I transition to 91 octane/100% gas to avoid moisture build up. I store with said fuel/stabilizer. Come riding season this year, I will be using a PV3 and upgraded map. I will then be required to run 91+ octane with said map. On my trips, I will switch the map back to stock for my there/back miles to save .50/gallon and up in fuel costs

 

[JS3535]

I also run 87 octane/10% ethanol during the riding season without issues/concerns. When the season is winding down and the rides are less frequent, I transition to 91 octane/100% gas to avoid moisture build up. I store with said fuel/stabilizer. Come riding season this year, I will be using a PV3 and upgraded map. I will then be required to run 91+ octane with said map. On my trips, I will switch the map back to stock for my there/back miles to save .50/gallon and up in fuel costs

How much have you spent on your Spyder? $20k +? And all the money you have put in accessories and you are worried about saving 50 cents?!?!?

 

[troop]

1.) Locally by me, the diff between premium/regular is about .65/gallon
2.) Can't tell any performance difference between 87 octane-ethanol/91+ octane-100% gas
3.) Can-Am states 87 minimum/"recommends" 91+
4.) Don't need total performance on interstates/freeways
5.) Takes but a couple minutes to switch back/forth
Why not ?

 

[Revalden]

The 1330 engine has a compression ratio of 14:1 = 91 octane or higher. Your regular car or truck is around 9:1 or 10:1 = 87 octane. Perhaps you've noticed that when you downshift going into a twisty, the Spyder slows quite quickly because of that 14:1 compression ratio.

 

[troop]

The 1330 engine has a compression ratio of 14:1 = 91 octane or higher. Your regular car or truck is around 9:1 or 10:1 = 87 octane. Perhaps you've noticed that when you downshift going into a twisty, the Spyder slows quite quickly because of that 14:1 compression ratio.

Again, this is straight out the owners manual for your machine. Obviously, a moot point if you made changes to your ECU via a flash/PCV/PV3.

Type Premium unleaded gasoline
87 Pump Posted AKI (RON+MON)/2 Minimum octane
92 RON
91 Pump Posted AKI (RON+MON)/2
Fuel - Refer to
FUEL REQUIREMENTS
Recommended octane
95 RON
Fuel tank capacity 27 L (7.1 U.S. gal.)

 

[carbonation]

In addition to the additives, the different brands have different QA checks on the fuel they distribute. Not all gas that comes out of the pipeline is the same, and it does NOT actually mix in the pipeline. They transport all 3 grades and diesel in the same pipeline and know where the cutover points are. Its not all the same spec.

Fuel is a commodity. Refineries and brands trade fuels all the time. The distribution point closest to me is fed by Conoco/Phillips, Marathon, and Valero. All fuels are made to a specification, and wind up at the distribution point. The difference is only at the point of fill for the transport truck. If 2600 gallons of fuel is to be loaded, 260 gallons of ethanol is loaded first. Then fuel, then the particular brand of fuel's additive. Amoco has Invigorate, Marathon has STP. Phillips 66 did not give a spiffy name to theirs, but they do state that they use 3x the EPA minimum. Shell has VPower. Private branded fuels will get probably the minimum EPA additive. At any given moment, you could have fuel that came from P66 with Invigorate added going to an Amoco station. Or Marathon fuel going to Shell with the VPower add. If BP has a refinery that supplies the distribution point, a BP truck or contractor will take on BP refined fuel, ethanol, and Invigorate. Same if Shell supplies, or Marathon, whoever, generally speaking. As stated, fuel is a commodity, and is traded all the time. You won't see it on the pump for gasoline, it's all about the additive. Some exceptions for diesel. My local BP clearly posts that their diesel is NOT a BP product and has 11% bio mixed in. It could be P66, Valero, or Marathon.
Pipeline gas is virtually identical, and all of that is a blend of straight run, thermally cracked, reformed, and catalytically cracked, and hydro cracked molecules. Every refiner has multiple capabilities to produce pipeline fuel to the spec, which, around me, is 84 octane regular, and 91 octane premium. Adding the ethanol brings it up to 87 and 93 at the pump. Midgrade 89 is blended at the pump. The stations that sell 91 premium are getting the blend from the distribution point: 35% of 84 octane, 55% of 91 octane, and 10% ethanol. It's just more likely that the fuel you buy will be the cheapest swill that meets the spec vs. some pure, ideal fuel with additives to keep fuel injectors happy, and spinning fuel pumps lubed, while having a perfect burn on every single power stroke.
All said, buy fuel at busy stations, try and use one of the majors if possible, because they will have decent fuel adds present, and follow the label under the seat for octane recommendations. That's not to say I have not run regular....there have been times that was all the station had. And I noticed no difference in running, but I usually run premium, and when I can get it, boat fuel which is 91 with no ethanol. I add Techron when I think about it, and don't worry too much about it, because I'm going to ride, no matter.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Fuel is a commodity. Refineries and brands trade fuels all the time. The distribution point closest to me is fed by Conoco/Phillips, Marathon, and Valero. All fuels are made to a specification, and wind up at the distribution point. The difference is only at the point of fill for the transport truck. If 2600 gallons of fuel is to be loaded, 260 gallons of ethanol is loaded first. Then fuel, then the particular brand of fuel's additive. Amoco has Invigorate, Marathon has STP. Phillips 66 did not give a spiffy name to theirs, but they do state that they use 3x the EPA minimum. Shell has VPower. Private branded fuels will get probably the minimum EPA additive. At any given moment, you could have fuel that came from P66 with Invigorate added going to an Amoco station. Or Marathon fuel going to Shell with the VPower add. If BP has a refinery that supplies the distribution point, a BP truck or contractor will take on BP refined fuel, ethanol, and Invigorate. Same if Shell supplies, or Marathon, whoever, generally speaking. As stated, fuel is a commodity, and is traded all the time. You won't see it on the pump for gasoline, it's all about the additive. Some exceptions for diesel. My local BP clearly posts that their diesel is NOT a BP product and has 11% bio mixed in. It could be P66, Valero, or Marathon.
Pipeline gas is virtually identical, and all of that is a blend of straight run, thermally cracked, reformed, and catalytically cracked, and hydro cracked molecules. Every refiner has multiple capabilities to produce pipeline fuel to the spec, which, around me, is 84 octane regular, and 91 octane premium. Adding the ethanol brings it up to 87 and 93 at the pump. Midgrade 89 is blended at the pump. The stations that sell 91 premium are getting the blend from the distribution point: 35% of 84 octane, 55% of 91 octane, and 10% ethanol. It's just more likely that the fuel you buy will be the cheapest swill that meets the spec vs. some pure, ideal fuel with additives to keep fuel injectors happy, and spinning fuel pumps lubed, while having a perfect burn on every single power stroke.
All said, buy fuel at busy stations, try and use one of the majors if possible, because they will have decent fuel adds present, and follow the label under the seat for octane recommendations. That's not to say I have not run regular....there have been times that was all the station had. And I noticed no difference in running, but I usually run premium, and when I can get it, boat fuel which is 91 with no ethanol. I add Techron when I think about it, and don't worry too much about it, because I'm going to ride, no matter.

Thanks, however I have ( almost always ? ) used 87 Oct w/ethyl ( and 1/4 oz. per tank ) in my 1330 eng. .... it runs fine .... and I don't notice the loss of power...... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup: