Front end alignment/semi rant (Laser aligning is a MUST do)

[KX5062]

My wife and I rode 4 hours in LA traffic to meet up with Anne and Joe to get our Spyder aligned only to find out they can't do it because of a bad wheel bearing. They spent the time (THANKS a ton! :thumbup to check the alignment anyway and found that out our Spyder, which I knew to be out of alignment, was so far out of alignment that it fried a wheel bearing. :cus:

So don't get me wrong I love the Spyder, but the rant part is what was Can Am thinking in sending out all these Spyders with a major (safety) issue, IE: out of alignment?

Joe explained to me his understanding of how Can Am aligns the bikes at the factory and how they are disassembled and shipped to the dealers. Sorry, but that is a completely rinky-dink system. Regardless, something is wrong with what Can Am is doing or has done since the feedback all over the Web is that all of the bikes are out of alignment and it's just a question of how far. And, the how far in my case it is A TON.

And, no it's never been in an accident, taken off road, or dropped from the sky.

And, that leads me to another rant, and that being the design of the front axle. From my reading of the factory manual, and I haven't taken it apart YET, so that's all I have to go with, but it appears they used a caged ball bearing on the front end.

If I'm wrong, then I will apologize in advance and retract the following paragraph, but.........

Ball bearings?????? Really????? What are they thinking? Ever hear of tapered roller bearings? (sarcasm intended) Ball bearings can't withstand lateral loadings, tapered roller bearings can. That's why they were developed in the first place. The only answer I can think of is one again, cost. Ball bearings are much cheaper than tapered roller bearings, but wow, that is not something to cut corners on, even if it affects the corporate bottom line. (And, I bet they're Chinese to boot too.)

So, I guess the moral of the story, is get to a laser aligner as soon as possible. Don't trust the dealers unless they have an established alignment process. In the case of one of my local dealers was a 2x4 on the ground and a tape measure (No, I didn't do that, but that's what they told me they did when I inquired before bringing it in to them.). So don't just go by it's a dealer, it must be all good. Joe and Anne, Lamont, or whoever is doing the laser system is a MUST do for any Spyder owner, and do it before something goes bad.

Once again, a BIG thanks to Joe and Anne, Lamont, and others for discovering this problem and fixing it so we can safely enjoy a fine product, albeit one with some corners cut.:ani29:

 

[Lamonster]

Joe explained to me his understanding of how Can Am aligns the bikes at the factory and how they are disassembled and shipped to the dealers. Sorry, but that is a completely rinky-dink system. Regardless, something is wrong with what Can Am is doing or has done since the feedback all over the Web is that all of the bikes are out of alignment and it's just a question of how far. And, the how far in my case it is A TON.

The disassembly has no effect on the alignment. They align off the rear axle and the front rotors with the trunk off. The only thing that is removed is the wheels and that has no effect on the alignment, if it did you would have to align your bike every time you changed tires.

 

[KX5062]

Thanks for posting those photos again. I've seen them and read your stuff, which is extremely useful to us listers. :bowdown:

However, there clearly is a disconnect somewhere in the process whether its in the assembly, shipping, or reassembly. What do you think is the problem? I'm curious to hear (read) what you think about it. opcorn:

 

[3 Wheel Addict]

I have asked that same question before... if the factory is doing a laser alignment then why are they all out of wack?? A bunch of us from the Cincinnati area was suppose to go to Lamonts last fall and get the alignments done but the weather did not allow that to happen. I think we are going to try again this summer some time.

And I agree about the ball bearings vs tapered bearings, plus we could service tapered bearings.

 

[OldDog]

Difference between factory and aftermarket alignment?

I'm not trying to rain on the after market alignment business. As I read this thread and others that have addressed this, I keep asking myself the same question over and over. Others have raised this question as well more than once. Why should it be necessary to align a BRAND NEW SPYDER? Obviously, BRP's in house procedure is fundamentally flawed. We discussed before that BRP's criterion is based on a bean counters cost for an in house alignment. As a non owner, I realize my input carries little weight,but this to me is unacceptable. I'm not out to ruffle feathers. I'm expressing my dismay.

 

[NancysToy]

I'm not defending the factory alignment process or variability...nor the suspension design that causes substantial alignment change as cargo/rider weight changes, but remember that the Outlaw (ROLO) system is vastly different, and is far more precise due to the greater distance over which the toe-in is measured. A lot of these Spyders that have been reported to be off are probably well within factory tolerances. The laser system also aligns to the rear tire instead of the frame, so changes in belt alignment/adjustment after the Spyder leaves the factory, as well as small differences from frame to frame in the manufacturing process, can make for different readings between the two procedures. It is apples and oranges. The Outlaw system is better and more precise, but I don't think BRP's process is really any worse than for a typical automobile coming from the factory. It is just that the Spyder is much more sensitive to the alignment settings. JMHO

 

[PMK]

I'm not defending the factory alignment process or variability...nor the suspension design that causes substantial alignment change as cargo/rider weight changes, but remember that the Outlaw (ROLO) system is vastly different, and is far more precise due to the greater distance over which the toe-in is measured. A lot of these Spyders that have been reported to be off are probably well within factory tolerances. The laser system also aligns to the rear tire instead of the frame, so changes in belt alignment/adjustment after the Spyder leaves the factory, as well as small differences from frame to frame in the manufacturing process, can make for different readings between the two procedures. It is apples and oranges. The Outlaw system is better and more precise, but I don't think BRP's process is really any worse than for a typical automobile coming from the factory. It is just that the Spyder is much more sensitive to the alignment settings. JMHO

I would agree with this.

PK

 

[KX5062]

Scotty, I agree with almost everything you wrote with the exception of the last part about cars vs Spyders. Mechanically, they really aren't all that different, with the exception of the ball bearings. They may well be more sensitive than an automobile, but they really shouldn't. The only real difference that I can see is the A arms are really long proportionally and the shock have a strange geometry. Maybe that's it, I don't know.

However, when you combine all of the reports being posted about out of alignment issues and weird tire wear, IMO you have a fundamental problem somewhere.

The biggest problem I see is ball bearings. If the wheels are out of alignment, then that's going to create more lateral loading on the bearing surface. Ball bearings can't stand that kind of force. Chain reaction of events? I don't know. I do know that my bike has a bad wheel bearing at under 18k miles of easy use. I know and have known the front end is massively out of alignment. I also now know that the wheel side tie rod ball joint is going too and needs to be replaced. Common sense says the Spyder was misaligned from the get go and that has caused my other problems.

I also know that if I were so inclined I'd take the front apart and see if a machine shop could machine it to accept automotive style tapered roller bearings that are fully servicable. :firstplace:

 

[NancysToy]

Scotty, I agree with almost everything you wrote with the exception of the last part about cars vs Spyders. Mechanically, they really aren't all that different, with the exception of the ball bearings. They may well be more sensitive than an automobile, but they really shouldn't. The only real difference that I can see is the A arms are really long proportionally and the shock have a strange geometry. Maybe that's it, I don't know.

However, when you combine all of the reports being posted about out of alignment issues and weird tire wear, IMO you have a fundamental problem somewhere.

The biggest problem I see is ball bearings. If the wheels are out of alignment, then that's going to create more lateral loading on the bearing surface. Ball bearings can't stand that kind of force. Chain reaction of events? I don't know. I do know that my bike has a bad wheel bearing at under 18k miles of easy use. I know and have known the front end is massively out of alignment. I also now know that the wheel side tie rod ball joint is going too and needs to be replaced. Common sense says the Spyder was misaligned from the get go and that has caused my other problems.

I also know that if I were so inclined I'd take the front apart and see if a machine shop could machine it to accept automotive style tapered roller bearings that are fully servicable. :firstplace:

Very, very few of the front wheel bearings have failed. I do not think the ball bearings are an issue...especially from loading due to misalignment. They receive far more lateral loading during everyday turns than misalignment could ever induce. The tire wear problems have been drastically reduced over those seen in the first RT's, so the factory alignment has been getting better. Much of the misalignment seen is inherent in the design. As the Spyder is loaded and the ride height is reduced, the toe-in decreases. Heavy riders, passengers, and cargo all affect it. The other suspension components, with the exception of the A-frame bushings prior to 2013 are not robust, but most have held up well. The early A-frame bushings are difficult to grease, and if they are it isn't properly distributed to the bushing itself. That causes premature wear and eventual alignment issues. I am sorry that you have seen the failures you have experienced, but I think with proper installation your replacements would hold up well. Modification to incorporate tapered roller bearings would be too difficult and expensive for me to bother with. Easier to just change bearings regularly. Your results may vary. I wish you the best no matter which direction you choose.

 

[cptjam]

R/R that bearing, and we will come align it properly.
When I worked for GM, we made 1320 trucks a day. ALL of them were aligned, by laser equipment, to precise tolerances, or they were rejected, and sent to end of line repair, which I was in charge of. Final inspection folks were ruthless, and before it shipped, it was right. Maybe BRP end of line inspectors don't/can't/want to check that. All I know is I will check them for free.....and let the owner decide if the numbers are right. I suspect there is a fundamental flaw in the process, as alignment procedures seem to change every year. I do think excessive tire scrub is much harder on wheel bearings than normal turns. You turn much less than you drive straight. A mis aligned wheel is in constant stress (scrub).

 

[Frank G]

If I remember correctly my "55" VW Bug used Ball Bearings in the front wheels. Not so sure all or most cars today use Ball bearings for front wheel bearings. :dontknow:

 

[SNOOPY]

....And, no it's never been in an accident, taken off road, or dropped from the sky. .....

Wasn't it "drop" shipped to your dealer? :joke:

 

[Magdave]

R/R that bearing, and we will come align it properly.
When I worked for GM, we made 1320 trucks a day. ALL of them were aligned, by laser equipment, to precise tolerances, or they were rejected, and sent to end of line repair, which I was in charge of. Final inspection folks were ruthless, and before it shipped, it was right. Maybe BRP end of line inspectors don't/can't/want to check that. All I know is I will check them for free.....and let the owner decide if the numbers are right. I suspect there is a fundamental flaw in the process, as alignment procedures seem to change every year. I do think excessive tire scrub is much harder on wheel bearings than normal turns. You turn much less than you drive straight. A mis aligned wheel is in constant stress (scrub).

I too worked at GM and was the electrician that calibrated the alignment machines. Looking at the above pictures I cannot understand how you can align any vehicle that is partially assembled with no tires on it. That system looks like Rube Goldberg designed it. I am guessing BRP has a set of numbers they "think" is accurate but add up all the variances in rims & frames and you have a can of worms. It seems to me to be a ballpark alignment. Sorta like a bubble balance vs. a road force balance. There was also an ALDL machine at the final stop before the cars left the plant that made sure everything (including alignment) was working properly mechanically and electronically. It ran the cars engines on rollers Checked the brakes etc. I know BRP is trying to save a buck on shipping but I think all Spyders should be fully assembled and tested at the factory before shipping. My father in law got a Cadillac SRX( end of year clearance + GM discount) for less than the cost of a RTL out the door. BRP should ensure everything is perfect for the price we pay IMHO.

 

[cptjam]

The disassembly has no effect on the alignment. They align off the rear axle and the front rotors with the trunk off. The only thing that is removed is the wheels and that has no effect on the alignment, if it did you would have to align your bike every time you changed tires.

Looks like more than the frunk shy. All body panels, saddle, headlights........

 

[Lamonster]

Looks like more than the frunk shy. All body panels, saddle, headlights........

What I'm saying is they don't take anything apart that effect the alignment for shipping. If you look they do preload the suspension to allow for the weight of the parts that are removed and a rider.

 

[Magdave]

What I'm saying is they don't take anything apart that effect the alignment for shipping. If you look they do preload the suspension to allow for the weight of the parts that are removed and a rider.

But how do they know how much I and/or my wife weighs ? On a machine this light a hundred lbs here or there has got to make a big difference right?

 

[NetJunkie]

But how do they know how much I and/or my wife weighs ? On a machine this light a hundred lbs here or there has got to make a big difference right?

And that's the thing. They can't align it for everyone. I suspect that's why some are fine and others aren't. Also, these are very different than a car in one big way. Weight. I'm 150lbs. If I go sit in my 5500lb Jeep Grand Cherokee that's not a huge difference. When I go sit on a 700lb Spyder it's a big difference. And I'm a small guy. Get someone larger and that ratio goes up. That's where variation comes in.

 

[Lamonster]

But how do they know how much I and/or my wife weighs ? On a machine this light a hundred lbs here or there has got to make a big difference right?

Actually the passenger doesn't make that much difference on the toe in, and the range of adjustment is pretty wide till you get around 300 lbs (rider).

 

[Magdave]

Actually the passenger doesn't make that much difference on the toe in, and the range of adjustment is pretty wide till you get around 300 lbs (rider).

Not there...yetpps: But my wife and I exceed that by a decent amount together.

 

[KX5062]

I have verified, FWIW, Can Am does use ball bearings. It is the same bearings as used in their ATVs. Cost savings? You betcha.

Anyway, here a link for the specifications of the bearings used and a third party internet vendor who sells aftermarkets.

(No endorsement and no orders ever placed. The link is provided so the specification of the bearings are known.)

http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2470/DAC30600337-ATV-Double-Radial/Detail