Flag and National Anthem protests

[UtahPete]

I'm inclined to agree with this writer and Ken Burns, that the Vietnam War is the source of our great divide. This makes interesting reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-to-vietnam/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.bb4a7724e700

 

[classicvw]

I'd say kill it. No one is going to be swayed to change their mind based on what they read here. The issue of the day has run its course.

:agree: Kill it already. Some really ignorant comments from both sides.

 

[jcthorne]

Just because you say something isn't true doesn't make it so.

On this one sentence, as applied to your rebuttal, is the only part of it I can agree with. From my point of view, it is you that is living in a fantasy land rather than the real world. We will have to move along with the understanding that we see this issue very differently.

Oh, I do need to address one item you mentioned. No, there is no law that says you have to treat an officer of the law with respect. Not doing so will land you in peril in ANY COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Most far worse than in the US. Does not make this a police state. Respect does not mean you agree with them. I disagree with you and am attempting to state that in a respectful manner.

 

[wyliec]

I'm inclined to agree with this writer and Ken Burns, that the Vietnam War is the source of our great divide. This makes interesting reading.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-to-vietnam/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.bb4a7724e700

Don't you really think that you should start a separate thread for this?

 

[kep-up]

It has been a struggle, but I have managed to stay out of this one. And plan to continue to do so.

But, if anymore nasty personal comments get posted, I would agree that it should be CENSORED.

 

[UtahPete]

Don't you really think that you should start a separate thread for this?

Well, I thought it was relevant because the debate really seems to center on the meaning of patriotism and respect for honored traditions and symbols, which according to this article (and I tend to agree) really started to diverge with the turmoil surrounding the VietNam war.

I can relate to this in a number of different ways. Probably the most stark example is when I went home on leave before shipping out to VietNam. My sister had become engaged to a long-haired hippie and they let me know that if her fiancee got his draft notice, they were heading to Canada. I honestly didn't think much about it at the time (I really believe that America is about free choice), but looking back on it I can see how communities quickly became split over this issue.

They're still married, live 35 miles away, their son is a veteran of the Coast Guard, now an electronics tech with the Forest Service, all staunch Republicans and church-goers. We differ greatly on beliefs and values, but thankfully get along great, respecting each other's viewpoints. I know not all families from that era have fared as well.

I believe that if we want to understand the present, and prepare for a better future, we need to acknowledge and learn from the past. The Vietnam war was a turning point for American society and I think in order to fix what is wrong today we need as a nation to reconcile ourselves with the past.

Anyway, maybe you're right. This isn't the place for such a discussion.

 

[Firefly]

Seems many were asleep in history class and haven't bothered to do any research on these issues.
No sense arguing with those in such denial with closed minds.

 

[Pirate looks at --]

Well, I thought it was relevant because the debate really seems to center on the meaning of patriotism and respect for honored traditions and symbols, which according to this article (and I tend to agree) really started to diverge with the turmoil surrounding the VietNam war.

I can relate to this in a number of different ways. Probably the most stark example is when I went home on leave before shipping out to VietNam. My sister had become engaged to a long-haired hippie and they let me know that if her fiancee got his draft notice, they were heading to Canada. I honestly didn't think much about it at the time (I really believe that America is about free choice), but looking back on it I can see how communities quickly became split over this issue.

They're still married, live 35 miles away, their son is a veteran of the Coast Guard, now an electronics tech with the Forest Service, all staunch Republicans and church-goers. We differ greatly on beliefs and values, but thankfully get along great, respecting each other's viewpoints. I know not all families from that era have fared as well.

I believe that if we want to understand the present, and prepare for a better future, we need to acknowledge and learn from the past. The Vietnam war was a turning point for American society and I think in order to fix what is wrong today we need as a nation to reconcile ourselves with the past.

Anyway, maybe you're right. This isn't the place for such a discussion.

If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it, and sadly it appears that the horrible internal conflicts of the Vietnam Nam war are beginning to repeat themselves today!

 

[UtahPete]

If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it, and sadly it appears that the horrible internal conflicts of the Vietnam Nam war are beginning to repeat themselves today!

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

 

[Saluda]

Considering what just happened in Las Vegas, do you really think all this back and forth crap is necessary ??? Is it going to change (solve) anything ???

 

[UtahPete]

Considering what just happened in Las Vegas, do you really think all this back and forth crap is necessary ??? Is it going to change (solve) anything ???

I think communication is the main thing that moves society forward.

 

[RinconRyder]

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

"Our country" did not decide to massively interfere in the Mid-East - our president did (along with help from friends in Congress). That was exactly the same process that got us into trouble in Vietnam. And by doing so, and then lying about the reasons for the intervention, our government lost its integrity and that is a huge reason we are so divided today.

I agree with your statement that if we had the draft today we would not be participating in military interventions around the world. The streets would be filled with protesters just as they were in the 1960's.

 

[wyliec]

I watched in dismay and disbelief when our country decided to massively interfere in the middle east conflict. The only reason the public at large isn't protesting our military adventurism overseas now is because there is no draft. But, we seem not to have learned anything from Vietnam, except maybe how to treat soldiers better when they come home damaged from their experiences.

Should they have interfered at all, in any way? Also, what is the cutoff point at which it becomes massive? Is it money or troops, or both, and dollar figure and troop figure.

Even though you like to provoke, I always like your responses, whether I agree with them or not.

 

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

i think i have said about all i can on this thread, some agree some disagree. i will go to sleep each night and go to work the next morning
no matter what anyone thinks. i will still ride when i can, i will stand when appropriate and i will go to the bathroom when needed.

 

[UtahPete]

Should they have interfered at all, in any way? Also, what is the cutoff point at which it becomes massive? Is it money or troops, or both, and dollar figure and troop figure. Even though you like to provoke, I always like your responses, whether I agree with them or not.

Honestly, Wyliec, I am not trying to be provocative. When I first got active on this forum I did say some pretty provocative things, but lately I've tried to be conciliatory.

Anyway, I guess by 'massive' I meant the 'shock and awe' of the invasion of Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. Wasn't exactly subtle...

 

[wyliec]

Honestly, Wyliec, I am not trying to be provocative. When I first got active on this forum I did say some pretty provocative things, but lately I've tried to be conciliatory.

Anyway, I guess by 'massive' I meant the 'shock and awe' of the invasion of Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. Wasn't exactly subtle...

If you like movies, check out American Made. I'm sure you are probably aware it's about gov't involvement.

 

[Rogue Hawk]

I now have a very low opinion of NFL players. All a bunch of spoiled ingrates. But their are some exceptions. Tom Brady most notably. His greatness always stands above the rest.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/09/nfl_national_anthem_protests_t.html

 

[UtahPete]

I now have a very low opinion of NFL players. All a bunch of spoiled ingrates. But their are some exceptions. Tom Brady most notably. His greatness always stands above the rest. http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2017/09/nfl_national_anthem_protests_t.html

So, some millionaire players are okay, some aren't. The billionaire owners don't care either way, as long as they can keep the fans buying tickets, watching TV sports channels and buying overpriced paraphernalia. The more controversy the better. Like some famous movie star of the past once said 'there ain't no bad publicity' when it comes to engaging celebrity fans. You're nuts if you think any of the business people making money off you care about your opinion of sports teams and players, as long as you have one.

 

[Sarge707]

I they want to Protest Be Men or Woman and do it on their "Own Time" at Public town Halls or Protest Rallies NOT when they are being paid Millions and are on a Stage where everyone watching is ALSO paying to view in One respect or another.nojoke

 

[BoilerAnimal]

I had hoped this thread had finally died, but it's like a cat and seems to have at least four or five lives left.

A lot of folks have expressed outrage at the players who have had the audacity to exercise their constitutional right of free speech. Some say it's disrespectful to the flag or to the military or to the country as a whole. Some say they should protest in some other manner, that it's wrong to use their access to large crowds or to TV broadcasts to show any kind of message to the public. Some even believe they should be subservient and be docile or silent to any wrongs in this country. Many are unwilling to admit that what they are doing has even a modicum of merit.

I say they are carrying on a great tradition in this nation. They are doing something that every American, especially those who have served in the military, should recognize as one of the most important things that can be done. They are taking an active role in the politics of this great nation. They are honoring the sacrifices of all military servicemen from the beginning of this nation's founding. Many of you will not see it as so.

THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING THAT THOUSANDS OF VETERANS FOUGHT AND DIED FOR!

They are taking an action that is granted to every American by the Constitution of the United States of America. That is what every serviceman and every servicewoman has taken an oath to uphold and defend. By doing so, they are showing that those who have given their life in battle did not do so in vain!

Nowhere is it written that you have to agree with, like, participate or even watch. But you should at least acknowledge that this is one of the reasons that our military has fought in our long list of wars. To preserve the freedoms granted to us by our government through the Constitution.

Like it or not, the President has chosen to make this a point of contention between himself and the players who have decided to protest the treatment of people of color by some police officers.

This is the same person who got five deferments during the Viet Nam war. This is the same person who said he "felt like he was in the military" because he was sent to a military themed school to correct his behavior. This is the same person who said he "got more training, militarily, than a lot of the guys that go into the military" from that prep school. This is the same person that said about Sen. John McCain, "He was not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured.". This is the same person who attacked the parents of a true patriot who gave his life trying to save his fellow soldiers. This is the same person who gave State secrets to Russian diplomats in the White House. This is the same person who said that some of the white supremacists who marched and waived Swastikas in Charlottesville were good people. This is the same person who has openly questioned our commitment to our NATO allies. This is the same person who exhibits a strange fascination with Vladimir Putin. This is the same person who doubts our intelligence community's assessment of Russian interference in our 2016 election. This is the same person who now wants to decertify the Iran nuclear deal, thereby eliminating our oversight of their nuclear program and possibly allowing them to go the way of North Korea.

This is Donald J. Trump. The president of this country.

Now who do you think is patriotic?