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First oil change

You do seem very convinced, and you're the only person I've ever come across that maintains an early initial oil change can damage an engine. And while
I'm sure I'll never be truly convinced of the possibility, I am curious exactly what is it about an early initial oil change that can cause damage. Since you've
had access to the data, you can share that information. I simply can't conceive of anything, short of human error, that could cause such a thing.

This could be one of those things that we will simply have to agree to disagree on.
 
I'm not going to go digging into my history & writing yet another epic broadcasting it any further than I have done already simply to placate your need to hear the minutae of things that are now part of my personal historical record (if you REALLY want to know, you'll just hafta wait for & buy the book! ;) ) but at the risk of dragging this out longer than it has been already, maybe you might consider the following Possible.... :dontknow:

ALL machinery that has moving parts relying on oil to protect wear between surfaces that also need to seal under pressure needs to 'bed in' those moving parts & the 'wear surfaces' to some degree or another - IC Engines are just like all the rest in that matter - they have components that need to 'bed in'; the piston rings, cylinder walls, etc as well as big-end bearings, et al are what I'm talking about. That 'bedding in' is enabled by letting the oil do it's thing in what has been at some stage of the engine's design & development, a carefully measured and monitored way. In the past, before oils became quite the 'quality products' they are today, manufacturers even specified better quality/specific grade 'running in' oils & a 'must be followed at risk of premature failure' running in process that allowed all this to occur; but these days, when there's not so much difference across the range of oils & the manufacturing itself is of a much higher quality & to a finer degree, that level of 'running in' is not quite so important, but it is STILL NECESSARY!! So the design engineers & the manufacturers go to a fair amount of trouble to work out the necessary oil specs & the initial change intervals plus the long term servicing schedule etc to allow this 'bedding in' process to be achieved in such a way as to enable their products to work at their designed specification and ideally, to at least last as long as the warranty period - messing with any of that stuff OR the carefully calculated timings during the initial 'bedding in' process (including that 'first oil change') risks that not occuring in the designed & planned manner! :lecturef_smilie:

If you've ever had anything much to do with race engines, you'll know that each engine guru/design engineer will have a specific 'bedding in' process for their engines, usually covering things like the oils used, the engine revs used, the loads imposed et al, frequently timing the process right down to the second!! If they don't run the engines at the right revs/load etc with their chosen oils for the specified duration, then the big end bearings might not 'bed in' on the crank as well/for the right temperature ranges; the cam lobes might not 'bed in' properly to lift the valves the exact distance required at the intended poofteenth of a nano-second; and/or the piston rings might not 'bed in' on the cylinder walls as well as intended, meaning that cylinder could be compromised due to minute scoring, glazing, or because the seal made between the cylinder walls & the rings isn't quite what's expected, so the compression isn't quite what it should be..... :gaah: . And there's also a bunch of other stuff that may be minutely but critically changed by not running the engine with that 'as sold' oil in it for a fairly specific length of time so that it goes thru its known & planned for 'shear down' process &/or follows its carefully measured 'lubrication/wear profile'..... :rolleyes: . Sure, race engines are a little bit different than 'mass produced engines' intended for general use, and those race engine gurus are trying to eke the most power from those engines AND ensure they last for what's really fairly short periods of actual use, but the concept still applies in theory as well as in practice to your road car and your Spyder, or in fact, any ICE - if you don't run the intended oil for the intended period then any one of those & many other things might not end up achieving exactly what the designers & engineers expect it to, usually to your detriment in some way... even if you don't have the data or knowledge, skills etc to realise it! :rolleyes:

That is, to a large degree, why many engine manufacturs these days do their own initial 'bedding in' run & engine checks in-house - but they don't usually fully complete that process, simply because most don't have the time, the inclination, or the profit margins to cover the cost effective running of the engine for the equivalent of saaay, the thousand or so miles that it might actually take to fully complete the 'bedding in' process! Still, not to worry, they know that most buyers won't go changing out the oil on their new vehicle's engine themselves, and even if they do, there's a good chance that the new vehicle owner won't do it too much either side of the recommended/scheduled period, so the engineers are generally fairly confident that the 'normal driving' the new owner does before that carefully considered & timed 'first oil change' will take care of the rest, won't it? :ohyea:

Many here will be able to attest from their own experience that the initial use they put their vehicle to often has an impact on the way that engine performs for the rest of their ownership - and a LOT of that is very much dependent upon the way they've driven the vehicle during (the rest of) it's 'bedding in' period - drive it like you intend to use it has become pretty much the modern catch-cry for 'running in', albeit usually with a few caveats regarding not over-revving it or not driving at set revs for extended periods.... And those who might instead 'baby' their new engine or those who thrash it to within an inch of its life within that 'bedding in' period often don't realise &/or if they do realise, understand why their engine doesn't do as well, last as well, or maybe perform as well as anyone elses! :shocked: As I've experienced in my working life and said earlier here, there's also a risk that changing out your 'as sold' oil fill too much too soon (or too much too late!) might do just the same sort of thing, only most of us don't have the where-with-all to readily recognise this. But it CAN and DOES still happen to some; occasionally catastrophically, more likely completely un-noticed by the new owner, even if they can't detect it. :p Have you ever wondered why some people invariably get better (or worse) fuel economy to you; or why some who own an apparently identical machine get better (or worse) performance than yours? If you had the where-with-all, then from my experience & hard learned knowledge, I'd suggest that looking into the 'bedding in' process you used and when you did the 'as sold' oil fill change-out it might be very revealing. And I really doubt that I'm the only person to ever suggest that doing an early 'as sold' oil fill change-out might not be such a great idea, too! ;)

But remember, it's YOUR Spyder, you can choose to do with it as you will - I've said my piece, given my word of caution, you now get to do whatever you like to your machine! :cheers:
 
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Oil and tires!!!! Why is it that these two things can get every ones panties in such a bunch!!!! We all need a LONG ride, with our hair, for the ones that still have hair, blowing in the breeze!!!:roflblack: Let it go!! Oil is cheap, do what ever makes you feel good!!:shemademe_smilie: Have a good day!!!:cheers:
 
Hi all
I just picked up a used 2020 Ryker Rally with 300 miles on it. When should I do the first oil change?



~~~if your used Ryker Rally didn’t come with an owners manual, buy one, and read it, cover to cover. It will tell you everything you need to know about that vehicle. I bought a 2020 Ryker Rally new approximately one year ago. I bought it in Topeka Kansas at Cycle Zone Motorsports. Because I live in north central Fla. you may be wondering why I bought my Can Am Ryker Rally in Topeka Kansas. The answer is simple and honest. They treated me fairly, & Jake likes to be treated fairly. Far more fairly than my local kawahondazuki mega stealership treated me, but you were asking about when should you do the first oil change. Sorry, but I digress!

I have 4 K miles on my Ryker Rally and have not done the first oil change yet. As I said, i bought it new a year ago The owners manual that was supplied to me when I bought mine said the first oil change needs to be done after achieving 6K miles *or*after one year has expired. Since I bought mine 52 weeks ago, I guess it’s time to do the first oil change

In regards to the motor oil. I’ve kept an eye on the dip stick. It hasn’t burned a drop of oil in the past year. In fact, the oil is still translucent, to a fairly high degree. That said, I’m going to change it very soon. After all, the manual said I need to travel 6 K miles or own it for a year before doing the first oil change. I better get with it, don’t you agree=:-)

Not that anyone asked but, early on in my initial ownership phase, I bought the kit that contains the motor oil filter, a large circumference oil canister filter gasket, and two gaskets for the sump drains (there are two oil sump drain plugs). One of those sump drain gaskets is aluminum & the other small gasket is copper. I’m looking at them right now. FWIW I purchased this kit from a forum member (Baja Ron). I also bought a K&N air filter from Ron and installed it in place of the OEM CVT belt filter, which incidentally is the same filter used for the engine air filter. The CVT belt draws a lot of air & I felt that by installing the K&N air filter in place of the paper OEM belt air filter, that was a logical move. Before I changed the OEM belt air filter, I would routinely smell burnt rubber, I presumed from the OEM CVT belt getting hot. I know this might sound like alchemy but I swear, when I swapped out that OEM paper air filter for the higher flowing K&N air filter, I didn’t smell burning rubber anymore. I’ve had a few CVT belt driven trannies on motorscooters I’ve owned/ridden since that first one in 1985 (250 cc Honda, not the Helix, but it used the same motor/CVT). I still own/ride the 2013 Vespa GTS300 I bought new in 2014 and that CVT, boy did the Piaggio engineers under engineer/spec the clutch hub in that CVT. It ate the clutch shoes/belt right quick. If it’s one thing all CVT trannies have in common, they need to breathe, & why I changed out the OEM paper CVT belt filter in my 2020 Can Am Ryker Rally early on

In regards to the local Can Am dealer, their sales force personnel really are nice people but they demanded Jake pay a $1700 premium over and above MSRP. Jake has been buying new and used motorcycles since he bought his first new motorcycle, a 1976 650 Yamaha twin. Jake got that one for $40 under MSRP. In fact, Jake has never paid a dime above MSRP for any of the new motorcycles he bought in the last 45 years so, he wasn’t about to start paying above MSRP when he bought his 2020 Ryker Rally. Still, Jake could have picked up a Ryker at a price he was willing to pay a lot closer than going to Kansas yet Jake has a girlfriend he needed to see in Kansas so Kansas it was for a new Ryker Rally

Seriously though, the guys at Cycle Zone have a very good reputation on this inter web board. They did a great job setting up my Ryker Rally. She tracks straight even at speeds well in excess of the National speed limit. Cycle Zone isn’t a mega dealership but they sell a lot of Can Am’s. I recommend them highly if anyone is looking to buy a new or used Can Am


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
I first changed engine and trans after one month/1,000 miles.

Fluids came out dark, trans drain plug was almost filled with sediment.

Drain plugs almost clean, ~5,000 miles later.

Photos in post 2 of this thread: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?137194-Maintenance-Schedule

Yep, thats what I'm talking about. For all of you who like to so religiously follow the manual recommendations, you go ahead and do you oil change at 6000 miles like the manual says. Thats why I dont buy used vehicles. There's a lot of people out there that really dont know what they're doing when it comes to vehicle maintenance.
 
Well, whether the Can Am and Rotax engineers know what their talking about is anybody's guess. Lots of people take what they say with a grain of
salt. Many have issues with several of the designs by the Can Am and Rotax engineers. Heat issues with the early twins, up to and including fires.
The latest problem seems to be issues with the front pulley on some models. I also believe there have been issues with the DSS system and many
complain about the radiator drain plugs that have trouble with being removed.

These would all be designs of the Can Am and Rotax engineers that don't seem to have worked out well so far. There are others, but these are the
ones that came immediately to mind. Maybe that's part of the reason that some people don't put all their faith in what the Can Am and Rotax
engineers postulate.
 
I guess the Can Am and Rotax engineers don't know what they're talking about but anybody on the internet is more knowledgeable. Right.

I would view the Can-Am maintenance schedule, which likely has a marketing influence, to be the minimum to (a) maintain factory warranty and (b) for the drivetrain to survive the warranty.

Suggest 5W40 in cool climates and 10W50 pure synthetic where ambient exceeds 104F (limit stated by XPS for their synthetic blend) .
Change engine, trans and final drive fluids at ~1,000 miles (crud on magnetic drains).
Change all thereafter in 5,000 mile intervals
Change trans air filter in 5,000 mile intervals
Engine air filter may go 10,000

This is advice for long motor and trans life. Take it or leave it.
 
Correction: First fluids change was 1200 miles / 5 weeks
As for debris, the photos can speak for themselves, regarding both crud on the magnetic drain plug and suspended particles in the drained oil.
2-1200 miles.jpg
5-transmission magnetic drain plug dirty.jpg
6-transmission magnetic drain plug cleaned.jpg
7-fluid color at 1200 miles.jpg
 
I changed the oil in my 2019 Ryker at 1500 miles. Oil looked fine. I also have a 2020 Zong Shen (CSC) tt250. I changed the oil at 100 miles because of the dirt fear and had it analyzed. The oil was still clean and could have went farther.
 
Correction: First fluids change was 1200 miles / 5 weeks
As for debris, the photos can speak for themselves, regarding both crud on the magnetic drain plug and suspended particles in the drained oil.
View attachment 188628
View attachment 188629
View attachment 188630
View attachment 188631



~~~I had a much different experience w/crud or lack thereof on the magnetic drain bung of my 2020 Ryker Rally Doc. As I stated earlier in this thread I was impressed how translucent the motor oil has been for 4 K miles. FWIW I changed the oil in this Ryker for the first time less than 12 hours ago, @ approx. one year went by since I bought it new 3/15/20. And again, I was blown away w/how clean/clear/translucent the motor oil was coming out of the crank case

Before I changed the oil I thought about coming to the board here and asking if there were any gotchas, then I realized I could peruse what’s been written here & look it up myself. At that time I believe I fell asleep=:-). I’ve been at this (caring for my own chit) for far too long, so I dove right in. To the member who remarked about oil threads getting everyone’s britches in a pinch, please, no offense meant but, this is how we communicate. We can’t talk about politics (too much) for fear we’ll get cancelled=:-)

Anyways, the reason I don’t change motor oil early, here on the farm, I have way too many other tasks to fill my dance card. I can’t be bothered doing things prematurely, but hey, whatever floats your boat if someone here wants to change the oil early, it’s your jack Jack. Looking at how filthy the oil you show here Doc, I’m gonna guess your motor was built on a Friday or a Monday. Having been born & raised in Detroit, I had a lot of peeps that worked in manufacturing and assembly. One such character bolted tail light assemblies onto Lincoln’s at the Wixom plant. I actually visited him in the plant once (1980’s). That was before you had to show an ID badge to gain entrance. I smelt marijuana here and there on my way to Dave’s station. He relayed a story how he once saw a chicken bone tied to a piece of string dangling inside one of the car doors. Dave didn’t say if he removed the bone. I wonder if the eventual owners heard an annoying noise they could never figure out where it was coming from, which reminds me, go to U-tube to listen to a song called Rouge Plant Blues, by stix and stoned. The name Marcus comes to mind. I knew a Marcus when we lived in big D


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
He didn't test Rotax motors and the test wasn't real world.

Some Aprilia motorcycles use Rotax engines. This is where the 998 V-Twin came from.

I always love how this forum has a habit of taking a simple question and turning it into a major discussion. :gaah: Simple question, simple answer. Follow the guidelines given by BRP (make sure they are documented) and your warranty will cover it. After the warranty runs out, do whatever you want because you will be paying for the consequences either way.

Not sure anyone could raise a plausible argument against your statement that we are able to complicate the simple. And work hard to make the difficult impossible. Still, I don't think anyone is going to have buyers remorse over changing to a known substance (lubricant) before the prescribed time. I plan to do it myself. It will tell me a great deal about my engine internals (oil analysis). If the test comes back saying I changed too early, so be it. If it comes back saying I waited too long. Well, that's a completely different kettle of soup.

Everyone has a different version of 'Enjoyment'. Within reason, it's all good!
 
Last time I looked closely at engine manufacturing plants here in Oz (not that there's many left these days! :rolleyes: ) one of the last steps on every one of those production lines was to fill them up with oil & connect to fuel & power etc, and actually run/test them..... Then once they'd passed their tests, they'd drain the oil, check everything out & then dispatch the engines off to wherever they were going to be installed... and I suspect ROTAX does this to most of the engines that leave their plant too - in fact, I believe doing that's mandated on many of their engines!! :lecturef_smilie:

So AFAIK, there's really no NEED for YOU to worry about draining that 'initial oil fill' in your new Spyder/Ryker to make sure there's no manufacturing debris left in there like there once may have been, simply cos you don't get to see the 'initial oil fill' - that has already been done & drained/relpaced! ;) Still, if you've paid for it, then it's your engine, and you can do/throw whatever at it you feel like. :thumbup:

This! And common and modern manufacturing includes robust cleaning steps that practically eliminate FOD (Foreign Object Debris) such as chips and oils. The microscopic dust and larger particles created during initial starting and running during the testing phase are minor and are caught in the oil filter.

I follow the manufacturer recommendations. They designed it. They went to school to be expert engineers. And I'm not an armchair enginner or ASE certified mechanic. I am a pretty experienced machinist and sometimes I do my own maintenance but mostly...

I ride the f$#ker!
 
This! And common and modern manufacturing includes robust cleaning steps that practically eliminate FOD (Foreign Object Debris) such as chips and oils. The microscopic dust and larger particles created during initial starting and running during the testing phase are minor and are caught in the oil filter.

I follow the manufacturer recommendations. They designed it. They went to school to be expert engineers. And I'm not an armchair enginner or ASE certified mechanic. I am a pretty experienced machinist and sometimes I do my own maintenance but mostly...

I ride the f$#ker!

I've been talking to a few of our local 'Engine Manufacturing Engineers' since my last post in this thread, and they reminded me that this is one time when it REALLY CAN HURT to change the oil too early!! :yikes:

Beyond Slider's post, they stressed that other thing to remember about WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT to leave your 'initial oil change' in the engine until it's scheduled change time is that while that 'first run & oil change in the manufacturing plant' that should address any FOD issues has almost always ALREADY BEEN DONE, the next oil change period is pretty much ESSENTIAL to the proper bedding in of your new engine's rings & bearings, valves, valve guides, etc etc!! :lecturef_smilie:

That initial service period specified by the manufacturer has been calculated based upon the rate at which the 'as sold' oil fill collects all the microscopic contaminants & debris generated and then effectively shears down - so by replacing that oil early and putting in fresh oil that hasn't yet lost any viscosity/shear qualities or collected the microscopic bits that are essential for the proper bedding in of all those fairly important components, you are quite possibly (if not actually very likely! :p ) messing with their effective bedding in, and therefore you are quite likely harming your engine's potential life &/or performance, power output, & maybe even fuel economy, even if you don't ever recognise that because you'll never actually get to experience its full potential because you stuffed any chance of ever experiencing that full potential by changing the oil out TOO EARLY!! :shocked:

Still, as I said earlier, you've paid for it, so it's your engine, and you can do/throw whatever at it you feel like. However, it might pay to remember that there's usually a few reasons for those 'recommended oil change periods', and especially for the first one, leaving the 'as sold' oil fill in for that length of time is quite important to achieving the full potential of the engine as part of its 'bedding in' process, even if we don't actually need to use special 'running in oils' &/or do too much in the way of 'babying' the engine &/or driveline these days!! :thumbup:

Good Luck! :cheers:

PS:
Oh, and those previously mentioned Engineers also suggested that you should expect to see at least some fine metal debris (but hopefully not any chunks much larger than a fingernail cutting! :rolleyes: ) collected by the magnet on the drain plug when you do (in the recommended course of time/distance travelled) get around to doing that initial oil change, cos that is evidence that your engine internals HAVE actually done what they need to do during that 'bedding in' process!! If there's NO sign of any of that metallic 'fur', then they suggested you may not have worked your engine hard enough to have done the 'bedding in' properly, or maybe you've just changed the oil out too early & it's still bedding in... or glazing in! :gaah:

Just Sayin' ;)
 
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I've been reading ALL these good suggestions........and I will continue reading. BUT (BIG but) I'll go with Can-Am. Follow the leader, if it fails scream bloody murder
that it's all their fault..:chat:
 
I just follow the manual recommendations on all of mine. I look at it as a CYA situation. Never had a Spyder engine grenade itself. 7 of them and almost 200,000 combined miles. Close enough for me. :bowdown:
 
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