F3 Vibration

[jcasey]

THOUGHT I made it clear that I was making no excuses for BRP (READ IT) but I guess, like with everything else in this country, if it doesn't agree with your assessment it is wrong.... Geesh... Come on Mark, I'm not saying you are wrong, so have the decency to respect someones else's opinion, rather than write it off as BS.

:agree:

 

[sledmaster]

If you have an F3 with what you believe is excessive belt vibrations, take it to a BRP dealer for inspection so they can document it and provide that data to BRP tech. They need the data to provide a resolution, you need to get it documented. BRP has provided much detailed information to their dealers on this exact subject, much of it is shared above with the video of the belt vibration. Dealers have been instructed on steps to take and how to proceed, but there is no conclusive resolution for ALL units right now.

If you have not done this, then quit complaining. SOME F3s have more belt vibration than others. ALL Spyders have belt vibration to a degree, the F3s seem to be worse with the longer belt, and SOME F3s are doing it worse than others. BRP has provided their dealers with information on checking the belt tension at several locations of rear wheel rotation, as SOME units have an out-of-round sprocket or wheel or tire that is causing the (tension variation) vibrations to be worse. In these cases BRP has authorized dealers to make the required repairs.

If your rear wheel/sprocket/tire AND belt tension all check out to be within specification, and you STILL experience excessive vibrations, the belt tension can be changed to MOVE the speed at which the vibrations occur, otherwise we are going to wait until a resolution is determined and implemented. OR, try one of the aftermarket solutions, buyer's risk.

It is an annoyance, not the end of the world, but until you go through the BRP suggested steps quit your whining and complaining! First-year models often have issues that require additional engineering. Variances in supplier components, assembly, operating conditions, there are many factors that turn up with issues like this that were not a big deal during development with say 100 prototype units, but build several thousand and new issues always turn up. When they do, facts are gathered, root cause is established, possible solutions investigated.

Just trying to help you understand the process. We deal with it on snowmobiles all of the time, as we are much more limited in testing opportunities so things turn up on production units that we were not aware of in prototype testing. It happens.

 

[Darren111]

Oh I will be buying it, but I am going to play the waiting game. I suppose when a brand new product is released theres sometimes problems with the first batch, so my brain is saying to wait. In the meantime like others I will keep an eye on this post and watch this space

Hi Sledmaster,

Liked your post, as I was reading you mentioned something similar to what I mentioned about brand new products released (see my quote above) there is sometimes problems with the first batch. After talking to Spyder owners I will be going ahead with purchase of F3 at some point, however vibration isn't a issue for me anymore because it sounds like all Spyders vibrate and by the sounds of things there were worst issues before such as heating and bad tyres.

 

[kaamacat]

You figure BRP is between a rock-and-a-hard-place as they say. If there was a tensioner added (nature of the beast), that
would imply a defect, and, costly to retro all the units. It's too bad when they developed this generation (F3) unit, that they
did not go with some tensioner similar to what Buell did. (Just look up Buell Belt Tensioner and you will see their nice
solution). Because the F3 literally is a new generation and very different than the other units before, they could have added
this on without the liability. Basically an enhancement with this new gen of machine. Sadly they did not.

Its a belt, it is long... somewhere along the line it will vibrate based on the setting you have.

For what it is now, I do not often ride at that magic speed/rpm so while it is clearly bad, it is just a few seconds
for me when I'm out riding. Plus it changes dynamics when my wife is on. As for the alternatives, sure you could
run the rpm's higher into the next gear... not sure I see a need for that. (And at 3K that engine has more than
enough torque to move...) The 1330 is a sweet engine.

 

[stovebolt_six]

F3 vibration

Just purchased my F3 last Friday, upon maiden trip home, I felt serious vibration right around 71 mph. Dealer is supposed to look at it tomorrow, but with the information I found here, I may not waste my time?

 

[RedStar]

I have reported this to my stealership, and I got charged $50 for them to check and adjust the belt! There are more excuses on this forum about how this isn't a big deal! Drive around it! Get used to it? Report it to BRP! One excuse after another! No whining here! Just stating the facts to my first can-am product, and less than impressed. If you consider that whining then F.O! I'm only looking to get my p.o.s. tolerable to ride. If it weren't for this issue I wouldn't here looking for answers. I done here!

 

[Tazzel]

I have reported this to my stealership, and I got charged $50 for them to check and adjust the belt! There are more excuses on this forum about how this isn't a big deal! Drive around it! Get used to it? Report it to BRP! One excuse after another! No whining here! Just stating the facts to my first can-am product, and less than impressed. If you consider that whining then F.O! I'm only looking to get my p.o.s. tolerable to ride. If it weren't for this issue I wouldn't here looking for answers. I done here!

you funny

 

[Kennard]

Haven't seen anything constructive

So, I took my new F3 on it's first long ride yesterday which entailed some freeway driving. Turns out I have the belt harmonics between 67 mph and 72 mph. Has anyone found a solution to this issue, or has anyone had any success with a resolution through Can Am. :ani29:

Been around since 2012 and haven't witnessed any factory information with remedy. Maybe an anomaly that can't be stopped by BPR. After market devices must not be the answer because BPR hasn't incorporated their accomplishments on the sales floor, you would think BPR quietly needs this deal breaker issue to go away.

 

[Kennard]

Like others we await information from BPR

You can take these comments for what they are worth. I am a dealer, and I've put over 1,400 miles on my F3. I'll start off by saying all motorcycles, all engines, have a frequency vibration somewhere in their operating range. Triumph motorcycles, which share the same 3 cylinder (120 degree rotating/firing) configuration on many models, tend to have it between 3,000 and 3,400 rpm. It is always there, somewhere. This vibration can and sometimes is amplified thru the drive drain. In the case of a Triumph, it is via the chain or driveshaft. In the case of the F3, it is thru the belt. What makes it especially noticeable on the F3 is the long belt which is required to cover the massive rear sprocket. If you ever get a chance to "see" it occur (there are video's out there of the belt in action, and when the frequency vibration hits, you see it) you will have a better appreciation of the event. It is unfortunate that the combination of gearing/rpm/torque make it particularly acute in 6th gear right at cruising speed. Triumph had the same thing going on in 1998-2004 on the Thunderbirds, Legends and Adventurer models. It is what it is, and a belt tensioner, in my opinion, would minimize/fix it. I make no excuses for BRP or the engineers who designed it and maybe underestimated the irritation this is creating.
That said, remember this..... these are not cars, with thousands of pounds of vehicle to absorb the vibrations. They are bikes. Ride an older Harley V-Twin, and you'll visit vibration. Heck, ride our RS/GS/ST models and you'll feel it somewhere in the rpm range. The smoothest engine I have EVER experienced was a 5 cylinder in a Honda racebike. The six cylinder GoldWings are also very smooth, but not without some vibration. They've all got it...somewhere
BTW, I believe the RT hides the frequency vibration better due to the shorter belt, combined with the heavier weight and different gearing.
Tim

like others I've waited since 2012 for BPR'S resolution to the belt shuttering. Both my RT/S and F3 shake at speeds between 61 and 72. I had the RT in the shop several times without resolution. The dealers techs say it's normal, my issue is the shutter can't be good for the drive train and my confidence. The dealers need to upload all their observations to BPR and stand behind their customers complaints.

 

[rockmantex]

F3 vibration

I fixed my vibration problem with a belt tensioner and my buffeting with a Madstad. No complaining here - just riding and smiling.

 

[sledmaster]

I have reported this to my stealership, and I got charged $50 for them to check and adjust the belt! There are more excuses on this forum about how this isn't a big deal! Drive around it! Get used to it? Report it to BRP! One excuse after another! No whining here! Just stating the facts to my first can-am product, and less than impressed. If you consider that whining then F.O! I'm only looking to get my p.o.s. tolerable to ride. If it weren't for this issue I wouldn't here looking for answers. I done here!

No way should you have been charged for this, it is a warranty issue, well known and documented, they were wrong to do so. You are VERY justified in complaining. A key question is if they checked the belt tension at several points of rear wheel rotation? If not then they did NOT follow the service information being provided to them by BRP, thus they are idiots and do not deserve your business. Go back and complain some more that this is a warranty issue and you demand a refund of your money. Oh, no need to get nasty with us here on the forum that are trying to help you. We are fellow owners, not the ones who took advantage of you. My F3 does the same thing, you are not alone.

 

[mikedoucette66]

You shouldn't have to do any special tricks whether its shifting or not shifting techniques .... With the amount of money that was spent to buy this bloody thing this is unacceptable for BRP to not do anything about it just saying!!

 

[Tazzel]

You shouldn't have to do any special tricks whether its shifting or not shifting techniques .... With the amount of money that was spent to buy this bloody thing this is unacceptable for BRP to not do anything about it just saying!!

If that were true then there would be no cars or motorcycles ever purchase because I have not own or rode one yet that did not have some kind of issue

 

[109spyder]

You guys don't know vibration, go test ride a M109r, they vibrate In a certain range as well.

shaft drive. Mind you they have some pretty big Pistons bouncing around In there

 

[mikedoucette66]

If that were true then there would be no cars or motorcycles ever purchase because I have not own or rode one yet that did not have some kind of issue

Tazzel..... You can't tell me BRP didn't know about this issue before they launched the F3!!!! They should do the right thing and FIX IT

 

[John C]

The Spyder drive belt is a tensioned string system that transmits the drive pinion torque to the rear sprocket via the tension of the upper part of the belt. The natural response of a string system is to vibrate when stretched and released at different speeds and strengths. The accumulated energy of these movements in the belt will be dissipated throughout the entire vehicle through the drive pinion and the rear sprocket.

A momentary belt vibration may be felt when the vehicle is driven under increased load/torque conditions (acceleration and/or going uphill). When the belt tension is within specification, the phenomenon may occur between 3800rpm and 4300rpm in 6th gear on 1330 engines (or between 4700rpm and 5500rpm in 5th gear on 991 engines). This vibration is felt through the handle bars, the foot rests and the seat. The harmonic vibration described here is considered "normal behavior" for such a belt drive system. In no cases is there any damage produced to the unit's mechanical components by this harmonic vibration.

Although belt vibration cannot be entirely eliminated, changing the belt tension will change the RPM/Speed at which the vibration occurs and the amplitude of its occurrences. Adjusting the drive belt tension lower will reduce the vibration level. Under high load/torque conditions, the vibration levels are diminished in amplitude and the RPM which the vibration occurs is lowered by roughly 400rpm.

For someone driving regularly between 68 and 75mph having a lower belt tension means they will feel a belt vibration when going through speeds of 62 to 65mph but at a lower amplitude, and feel less vibrations under acceleration and cruising speed. For someone driving regularly between 62 to 65mph having a belt tension set at specification means they will not feel as much the belt vibration since it occurs at higher RPM/Speed 68 and 75mph.

Statically, the belt tension is based on the distance between the drive pinion and the rear sprocket. The belt can be preset to a specific value using the tension adjustment procedure. While standing on its wheels, the belt tension of the Spyder increases due to the rotation motion of the swing arm. Further additional weight on the vehicle (driver, passenger and luggage) further increases the static tension of the belt.

Dynamically, the big picture is that the belt tension continuously varies with the road surface irregularities. Furthermore, to transmit torque from the drive pinion to the rear sprocket, the given amount of tension is decreased from the lower portion of the belt and transmitted to the upper portion of the belt. The inverse is also true when the vehicle is under deceleration. The amount of tension transferred depends on the acceleration or deceleration of the vehicle and slope of the road.

The belt tension is the factor which determines the belt vibration. The engine speed at which vibration would occur depends solely on the tension of the belt since the length and mass of the belt remains relatively constant. More vibration is transmitted to the vehicle when the tension is high. This effect can be explained by the fact that higher tension implies higher stiffness and higher stiffness implies higher transmissibility. This also explains why even though more vibrations are observed on the lower portion of the belt, only the vibration of the upper portion of the belt is strongly felt on the vehicle due to its higher transmissibility (because it has a higher tension in the majority of driving conditions).

At constant speed and zero road slope, the upper part of the belt has a higher tension than the lower part of the belt due to aerodynamic resistance. Under acceleration and/or hill climb conditions, the upper part of the belt further increases in tension. The degree of acceleration or hill climb proportionally dictates the engine speed at which occurs the belt vibration and the amplitudes of vibration transmitted to the vehicle.

By reducing the tension of the belt, the transmitted vibration at very low torque conditions can be completely removed. The transmitted vibration at higher torque is similar to that of the specification belt tension but occurs at slightly lower RPM/speed.

So basically, if you experience unpleasant vibrations have your drive belt tension checked at three different points of rotation of the rear wheel/sprocket and see how it varies, and compares to the vehicle's specification. If the belt tension changes more than 250N between 2 readings this would indicate an out of round rear sprocket which should be replaced. Otherwise, you can adjust the tension to change the speed and amplitude at which it occurs.

Sledmaster,

Thanks for that video and informative post. My F3s has the belt vibe from 68 to 73 mph, so noticeable and consistent that you wouldn't need a speedometer, when it happens, you know exactly what speed you are going. It's not a huge deal in my opinion, but it is an annoyance. I guess I'll try one of the Baker F3 Belt stabilizers until Can Am comes up with some kind of fix?

John C
Peyton, CO

 

[jcasey]

I don't know what I am doing but my vibration is almost gone. If I didn't know it was there I wouldn't know it. I did have the first service done the other day and they might have changed the adj on the belt.:clap::yes::yes::yes::yes:

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

VERY VERY TECHNICAL BUT IT'S TRUE AND IT WORKS

The Spyder drive belt is a tensioned string system that transmits the drive pinion torque to the rear sprocket via the tension of the upper part of the belt. The natural response of a string system is to vibrate when stretched and released at different speeds and strengths. The accumulated energy of these movements in the belt will be dissipated throughout the entire vehicle through the drive pinion and the rear sprocket.

A momentary belt vibration may be felt when the vehicle is driven under increased load/torque conditions (acceleration and/or going uphill). When the belt tension is within specification, the phenomenon may occur between 3800rpm and 4300rpm in 6th gear on 1330 engines (or between 4700rpm and 5500rpm in 5th gear on 991 engines). This vibration is felt through the handle bars, the foot rests and the seat. The harmonic vibration described here is considered "normal behavior" for such a belt drive system. In no cases is there any damage produced to the unit's mechanical components by this harmonic vibration.

Although belt vibration cannot be entirely eliminated, changing the belt tension will change the RPM/Speed at which the vibration occurs and the amplitude of its occurrences. Adjusting the drive belt tension lower will reduce the vibration level. Under high load/torque conditions, the vibration levels are diminished in amplitude and the RPM which the vibration occurs is lowered by roughly 400rpm.

For someone driving regularly between 68 and 75mph having a lower belt tension means they will feel a belt vibration when going through speeds of 62 to 65mph but at a lower amplitude, and feel less vibrations under acceleration and cruising speed. For someone driving regularly between 62 to 65mph having a belt tension set at specification means they will not feel as much the belt vibration since it occurs at higher RPM/Speed 68 and 75mph.

Statically, the belt tension is based on the distance between the drive pinion and the rear sprocket. The belt can be preset to a specific value using the tension adjustment procedure. While standing on its wheels, the belt tension of the Spyder increases due to the rotation motion of the swing arm. Further additional weight on the vehicle (driver, passenger and luggage) further increases the static tension of the belt.

Dynamically, the big picture is that the belt tension continuously varies with the road surface irregularities. Furthermore, to transmit torque from the drive pinion to the rear sprocket, the given amount of tension is decreased from the lower portion of the belt and transmitted to the upper portion of the belt. The inverse is also true when the vehicle is under deceleration. The amount of tension transferred depends on the acceleration or deceleration of the vehicle and slope of the road.

The belt tension is the factor which determines the belt vibration. The engine speed at which vibration would occur depends solely on the tension of the belt since the length and mass of the belt remains relatively constant. More vibration is transmitted to the vehicle when the tension is high. This effect can be explained by the fact that higher tension implies higher stiffness and higher stiffness implies higher transmissibility. This also explains why even though more vibrations are observed on the lower portion of the belt, only the vibration of the upper portion of the belt is strongly felt on the vehicle due to its higher transmissibility (because it has a higher tension in the majority of driving conditions).

At constant speed and zero road slope, the upper part of the belt has a higher tension than the lower part of the belt due to aerodynamic resistance. Under acceleration and/or hill climb conditions, the upper part of the belt further increases in tension. The degree of acceleration or hill climb proportionally dictates the engine speed at which occurs the belt vibration and the amplitudes of vibration transmitted to the vehicle.

By reducing the tension of the belt, the transmitted vibration at very low torque conditions can be completely removed. The transmitted vibration at higher torque is similar to that of the specification belt tension but occurs at slightly lower RPM/speed.

So basically, if you experience unpleasant vibrations have your drive belt tension checked at three different points of rotation of the rear wheel/sprocket and see how it varies, and compares to the vehicle's specification. If the belt tension changes more than 250N between 2 readings this would indicate an out of round rear sprocket which should be replaced. Otherwise, you can adjust the tension to change the speed and amplitude at which it occurs.[/QUOT

Thanks for the above explanation, now I feel validated.......Although I lowered my belt TENSION for a different reason I achieved the above result......I have NO discernible BELT VIBRATION ......I don't have an F-3 but a 2014 RT which now requires a much higher belt tension than previously..........But mine is now 200 lb using the Krikit ( tire on the ground ).........Mike :thumbup:

 

[kaamacat]

BLUEKNIGHT911... in this F3 forum, would you mind posting your settings. I created a thread for on and off ground
settings and results. (mine happens to be 220on/160off since new.... I've not touched it yet but do get the momentary
vibration). Just to compare notes and results. IMHO the 220on, comparing to other belt drivens I've had seems a bit
high just by feel.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

F-3 FORUM

BLUEKNIGHT911... in this F3 forum, would you mind posting your settings. I created a thread for on and off ground
settings and results. (mine happens to be 220on/160off since new.... I've not touched it yet but do get the momentary
vibration). Just to compare notes and results. IMHO the 220on, comparing to other belt drivens I've had seems a bit
high just by feel.

Yes this is the F-3 Forum and as I said I have a 14 RT......However ...what " Sledmaster " said is pertinent to ALL Spyder belts not just the F-3 and this was the reason for my commenting here because He Posted it Here...............if He had posted it elsewhere, then I would have posted it there.....................and to answer your question I have no idea about " off the ground ", since I never ride mine with the wheel OFF the ground I'm more concerned with the setting ON the ground...................I also believe People may be confusing normal engine " HARMONICS " and thinking it's BELT VIBRATION..........I have noticed when rolling ON the Throttle I can feel the Engine, when I roll OFF the Throttle that feeling diminishes ..........Try it , see what you think...............Mike :thumbup: