Erratic Idle

[Jim Haebe]

Hi all. My 09 RS is experiencing an erratic idle once it warms up. Idle will drop 200-300 rpm, then return to its normal idle speed of 1350+-. Bike is a year + old, always a smooth steady idle. When I returned from my summer ride (9300 miles), the engine was rough running when the throttle was applied above idle. Dealer changed plugs and cleaned air filter. Problem solved. Now engine has erratic idle. Seems like it just drops out, and then catches again. Spent a week at the dealers for some warranty work. While there, they hooked up BUDS and could find no reason for the idle problem. No codes showed up, although it continued the idle rough in their shop. O2 sensor showed it was active, idle air control valve also looked good. It was pretty thoroughly checked out by them (Las Cruces Motorsports). The bike runs alright other than the idle problem. Still it is a little disconcerting, it may morph into some other more serious problem when we are away on a trip etc. Any one have any other places to look or experience the same problem? Only mods to engine are cannister removal and breather box catch tank, all which were done shortly after receiving the bike. No problems until after the trip this summer. Bike has ~ 15,000 miles. Thanks ....Jim

 

[NancysToy]

It always disturbs me when these modern techs think their computer can tell them everything. I suspect a vacuum leak, possibly in the purge valve, due to a faulty valve or faulty solenoid. Could also be a vacuum leak at a hose or fitting, but the intermittent nature of it usually means otherwise.

Could also be a bad sensor or ECM, bad wiring or plugs, or even injector woes, but my money is on the purge valve. In any event, the computer will not tell them about mechanical problems such as this. there are physical tests in the shop manual. Any rough running or hesitation at 3,000-4,000 rpm, especially under load?

 

[dancogan]

It always disturbs me when these modern techs think their computer can tell them everything. I suspect a vacuum leak, possibly in the purge valve, due to a faulty valve or faulty solenoid. Could also be a vacuum leak at a hose or fitting, but the intermittent nature of it usually means otherwise.

Could also be a bad sensor or ECM, bad wiring or plugs, or even injector woes, but my money is on the purge valve. In any event, the computer will not tell them about mechanical problems such as this. there are physical tests in the shop manual. Any rough running or hesitation at 3,000-4,000 rpm, especially under load?

OMG ... Scotty, I have to admit that I am in awe of your knowledge, and your ability to combine knowledge of the new electronics with your mechanical experience. I remember the times when I could tune up my own car, adjust the carb(s), whatever. Those days are long gone - for me.

 

[boborgera]

:dontknow:
Maybe this can help, I'm having almost the same problem except it will also stall out at an idle. When i posted about it coolmachine P/M me and said he had the same problem, turned out to be his spark plug wires.
My Spyder is in the shop, and they seem to think it's my wires too.
among other things. ETA on the wires ??

 

[Jim Haebe]

Erratic Idle #2

Hi Scotty, thanks for the speedy reply. The engine runs well under load at rpm's above idle. I will look into cannister plumbing. Interestingly enough, BRP said it could be something with the cannister plumbing/hardware. Thankyou for your assistance.....Jim

 

[NancysToy]

OMG ... Scotty, I have to admit that I am in awe of your knowledge, and your ability to combine knowledge of the new electronics with your mechanical experience. I remember the times when I could tune up my own car, adjust the carb(s), whatever. Those days are long gone - for me.

I am a dinosaur, and these techs can run rings around me with the electronics. I only understand the basics. Besides, I have no diagnostic tools, like BUDS. I stick with the old junk, for the most part, because I understand it and can work on it. My work experience, with machinery and programmable controllers, as well as control software, helpedmy undertanding, though. Glad I'm retired...that stuff makes my brain hurt! :roflblack:

 

[Star Cruiser]

Hi all. My 09 RS is experiencing an erratic idle once it warms up. Idle will drop 200-300 rpm, then return to its normal idle speed of 1350+-. Bike is a year + old, always a smooth steady idle. When I returned from my summer ride (9300 miles), the engine was rough running when the throttle was applied above idle. Dealer changed plugs and cleaned air filter. Problem solved. Now engine has erratic idle. Seems like it just drops out, and then catches again. Spent a week at the dealers for some warranty work. While there, they hooked up BUDS and could find no reason for the idle problem. No codes showed up, although it continued the idle rough in their shop. O2 sensor showed it was active, idle air control valve also looked good. It was pretty thoroughly checked out by them (Las Cruces Motorsports). The bike runs alright other than the idle problem. Still it is a little disconcerting, it may morph into some other more serious problem when we are away on a trip etc. Any one have any other places to look or experience the same problem? Only mods to engine are cannister removal and breather box catch tank, all which were done shortly after receiving the bike. No problems until after the trip this summer. Bike has ~ 15,000 miles. Thanks ....Jim

I had a similar problem quite a while ago. I did a system reset (It was on the forum about how to do it) and I never had the problem occur again (coincidence? - I don't know). I also found when it was idling erratically, if I put it into neutral at idle it would stabilize and be OK again for a while. Tha was before doing the reset.

 

[Campverdefela]

It always disturbs me when these modern techs think their computer can tell them everything. I suspect a vacuum leak, possibly in the purge valve, due to a faulty valve or faulty solenoid. Could also be a vacuum leak at a hose or fitting, but the intermittent nature of it usually means otherwise.

Could also be a bad sensor or ECM, bad wiring or plugs, or even injector woes, but my money is on the purge valve. In any event, the computer will not tell them about mechanical problems such as this. there are physical tests in the shop manual. Any rough running or hesitation at 3,000-4,000 rpm, especially under load?

You are absolutely right Scotty it could be any of these things. I too had the problem and had a small crack in a vacuum line I believe the fuel pressure reg. vac. hose but have also experienced it with a change in gasoline octane.

 

[Jim Haebe]

Erratic Idle Fixed (hopefully)

Hi all. Recently I posted about my Spyder having an erratic idle. After a trip to the dealer where it was hooked up to BUDS, no reason could be found for the idle problem. Well to make a short story of this, while doing some snooping of my own, I heard a familiar snapping sound and the front cylinder spark plug was arcing through the boot to the head. A closer look revealed that the boot was compromised, most probably by someone using a pair of pliers to remove it. Anyhow, this brings up an observation that although the engine was connected the first time at the shop to BUDS, it gave no indication of a problem, since it was still firing. I think the computer gives the tech's a false sense of security. If the computer does not see a problem, there is none. Computer or not, the engine still needs Fuel, Air, Spark to operate. Nothing has changed about that regardless of how many computers control the engine. In defense of the shop, the spark plug well is mighty tight around the plug. A normal plug boot pulling tool would be hard to use, still....
Also as an aside, the MAP sensor hold down screw was loose, got 3/4 turn out of it........Thanks....Jim

 

[dave01]

Just had my front wire replaced last Thursday. Mine was shutting down the cyl and arcing to the head. Then the heavy fuel smell since it wasnt burning anything from the front cylinder. On the way to Daytona, the idle was great, but the fuel smell is back. Going to give it back to my dealer for a good once-over and figure this out.

 

[RShrimp]

Yep, I think I am ready for plug wires too. I have had an intermittent missfire for some time. I change the plugs and it goes away but it comes back within 1000 miles. (I am thinking out loud now.) When I change the plugs I always add a bit of silicone grease to the plug boot. That grease may be temperaraly stopping the arching. All the plugs I have pulled out look fine but new ones (the way I install them) fix the issue for a little while.
Great thread! .....got me thinking! Getting some plug wires when it goes in for DPS next week

 

[boborgera]

:dontknow:
Maybe this can help, I'm having almost the same problem except it will also stall out at an idle. When i posted about it coolmachine P/M me and said he had the same problem, turned out to be his spark plug wires.
My Spyder is in the shop, and they seem to think it's my wires too.
among other things. ETA on the wires ??

Just an update, It was my spark plug wire. Took about a week to get the wire.

 

[Campverdefela]

Just an update, It was my spark plug wire. Took about a week to get the wire.

Anyone know if their is another source for spark plug wires other than the OEM ones?

 

[boborgera]

Anyone know if their is another source for spark plug wires other than the OEM ones?

In the old days i would make my own wires. rogjal clips and Packard 440 wire, But that won't work now days.
Anyway the wires for the Spyder are made in Japan.
Maybe you can cross reference them . I would like to give you a part # but, there more #'s on the bag it came in than Carter has little pills.
N G K Is Printed on the wire.

 

[RShrimp]

I am going to look to Summit racing or Jeg's and see what I can find. I will likely have to buy 8 them but ......
Problem is I have seveal trips coming right up that do not include the spyder so it is going to be a while before I get to futz with this. I have always liked MSD stuff so I see some RED wires in my future and maybe a set of coils too.

I know, warrenty ......I am not going to mess with the dealer and the wait time for something I can fix, and do a better job because I have access to aftermarket parts for less than $100. (If a bunch of OEM wires are failing what makes you think that new ones from the same source are going to be any better)

If you do go aftermarket, One caution: Stay away from "race only" solid core copper or silver wires. The RF noise they produce could play havoc on the ECM.

 

[dave01]

I believe the big issue here is when the shop removes the wire during the service. I was there when they took the front one off and its a pain in the rear. I think they are damaging the core and its causing the wire to fail. My back wire was easier to reach and has had no issues so far.

 

[RShrimp]

A Dab of dielectric silicone grease on the tip of the plug and it will both seal it from moisture and make it come off easier when the time comes.

 

[boborgera]

I believe the big issue here is when the shop removes the wire during the service. I was there when they took the front one off and its a pain in the rear. I think they are damaging the core and its causing the wire to fail. My back wire was easier to reach and has had no issues so far.

:agree:I'm sure that's how mine was damaged .

 

[RShrimp]

I just ordered a set of coils and 8.5 mm wires from MSD. The trick should be to match the primary resistance of the new coils with OEM and the secondary resistance with the type of plug wires you are going to use.
I spent yesterday on the phone with MSD engineer.

I will post details if and when it works.

 

[NancysToy]

I just ordered a set of coils and 8.5 mm wires from MSD. The trick should be to match the primary resistance of the new coils with OEM and the secondary resistance with the type of plug wires you are going to use.
I spent yesterday on the phone with MSD engineer.

I will post details if and when it works.

Looking forward to the results, I have been contemplating this mod for some time. Matching the characteristics of the coil are probably more important on the RS, which uses ionization current knock sensing. The RT uses dedicated knock sensors. The coil is monitored for misfire, though. I think the Spyder would benefit from a hotter spark and better wires.