1330cc ECU flash affect on engine temperature

[UtahPete]

This may be a moronic question, but I'll ask it anyway; does increasing the horsepower 25% or so increase the amount of heat generated by the engine? It seems to me it would.

I've been reading up on the topic here and elsewhere but I can't find where this issue is addressed.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

This may be a moronic question, but I'll ask it anyway; does increasing the horsepower 25% or so increase the amount of heat generated by the engine? It seems to me it would.

I've been reading up on the topic here and elsewhere but I can't find where this issue is addressed.

My thoughts on this are: the gas explosions in the cylinders and the friction caused by pistons on the cylinder walls is the primary causes for the heat produced ( plus the transmission produces heat ) .... I don't think ECU " flash " will change either of those to increase the heat ..... If you drove around ONLY in first gear at Maximum revs , that would have a larger effect .... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Peter Aawen]

This may be a moronic question, but I'll ask it anyway; does increasing the horsepower 25% or so increase the amount of heat generated by the engine? It seems to me it would.

I've been reading up on the topic here and elsewhere but I can't find where this issue is addressed.

For any engine, more fuel burnt pretty much means more power, so that part's correct; and for diesel powered engines, more fuel injected DOES mean more heat generated; but for petrol engines, it's the other way around! More fuel injected into a petrol powered engine actually reduces the amount of heat generated during the combustion cycle; while running them leaner increases the temp & heat produced - and since they leave the factory de-tuned & set up to run marginally lean to start with, increasing the amount of fuel injected generally means they'll run a tad cooler! :lecturef_smilie:

But as with so many things, the temp changed involved for petrol powered engines is really not all that massive, and there IS a point of diminishing returns either way - cos if you don't inject ENOUGH FUEL, then the combustion cycle won't occur to start with, so things will stay cold; and on the other extreme, if you inject TOO MUCH fuel into the cylinder, there's not going to be enough oxygen to properly sustain the combustion cycle so the engine will falter until the fuel simply floods the cylinder & stops the engine.... at which stage things are then going to get pretty cold pretty quickly!

So like Mike says, maybe "If you drove around ONLY in first gear at Maximum revs..." &/or you thrash the crap out of it all the time; but otherwise, an ECU Upgrade should actually help REDUCE the engine operating temps a tad, especially if you also toss that dirty great anchor of a 'heat generating' catalytic converter too - certainly did with mine! Fitting a Cat Eliminator was a great first step, but the ECU Upgrade was the thing that really pulled it all together, dropped the operating temps noticeably, & converted my Spyder into the really exciting to ryde machine that it should have been from the set to! hyea:

 

[UtahPete]

For both of you, then; how exactly does remapping the ECU produce all that extra power from the same amount of fuel? I've seen that most riders have claimed the same or better mpg after 'tuning'. The source of both heat energy and explosive energy is the same - the fuel being burned.

It just seems to me there must be some downside to tuning an engine for peak performance. Assuming the factory has it tuned for optimum combination of fuel efficiency and clean burning of the fuel, something in the equation has to change, doesn't it?

 

[Peter Aawen]

For both of you, then; how exactly does remapping the ECU produce all that extra power from the same amount of fuel? I've seen that most riders have claimed the same or better mpg after 'tuning'. The source of both heat energy and explosive energy is the same - the fuel being burned.

It just seems to me there must be some downside to tuning an engine for peak performance. Assuming the factory has it tuned for optimum combination of fuel efficiency and clean burning of the fuel, something in the equation has to change, doesn't it?

THAT's where you're mistaken!! :lecturef_smilie: Your Spyder's engine may have been designed to run at the optimum of fuel efficiency & clean burn, but that's not how they leave the factory!

I'm sorry for those who don't really want to get into this, but for those that do, here goes with my 'vague description from what little I remember from a previous life'! And please bear in mind that I'm not at all positive of the exact numbers any more, so I hope you'll excuse me if I get them a bit wrong or a/about...

But... basically, our Spyders leave the factory with the Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR) set lean, at something like 16.5 or thereabouts across a wide portion of the rev range, amongst other things in order to let them generate the necessary exhaust heat to properly activate the catalyst in the cat converter to remove the (miniscule) amounts of harmful gasses that these engines produce. The theoretical ideal AFR for complete combustion, the stoichiometric Air-Fuel Ratio, is around 14.7:1 for petrol powered engines, effectively meaning that in order to completely burn 1 kg of fuel, we need 14.7 kg of air..... Make sense so far?? :dontknow:

When the Air-Fuel Ratio is higher than the stoichiometric ratio (like the 16.5:1 or whatever that our Spyders leave the factory with) the Air-Fuel mixture is called lean & generally runs a touch hot as well as not quite as efficiently NOR as powerfully as it could be across the given rev range, so you'll sometimes have to use a little more throttle to achieve/maintain a given power output & therefore speed, likely burning extra fuel in the process... And when the AFR is lower than the stoichiometric ratio, saaayy, 13.7:1, the Air-Fuel mixture is called rich & runs cooler, altho possibly a little more powerfully (until you pass that point of diminishing returns! ) and while you might not need quite so much throttle for a given power output at any specific revs, as the mixture gets richer it will use more fuel. Still with me?!? :dontknow:

So given that an AFR of 16.5:1 is lean & less powerful while 13.7:1 is rich but more powerful, if you're not too worried about that Cat Converter working at its best (or at all, cos you've fitted a Cat Eliminator & don't need to worry about creating a 'hot spot' in the exhaust any more!?! ) then an ECU Upgrade can set your AFR anywhere that suits you for your desired power output, taking fuel economy into account as you desire; or it could even set the AFR to 14.7:1 across the widest rev range possible - which just happens to be the IDEAL OPTIMUM setting for both Power & Fuel Efficiency. Best of both Worlds - more power AND better fuel economy, and running a touch cooler too! hyea:

Make sense??

 

[UtahPete]

THAT's where you're mistaken!! :lecturef_smilie: Your Spyder's engine may have been designed to run at the optimum of fuel efficiency & clean burn, but that's not how they leave the factory!

I'm sorry for those who don't really want to get into this, but for those that do, here goes with my 'vague description from what little I remember from a previous life'! And please bear in mind that I'm not at all positive of the exact numbers any more, so I hope you'll excuse me if I get them a bit wrong or a/about...

But... basically, our Spyders leave the factory with the Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR) set lean, at something like 16.5 or thereabouts across a wide portion of the rev range, amongst other things in order to let them generate the necessary exhaust heat to properly activate the catalyst in the cat converter to remove the (miniscule) amounts of harmful gasses that these engines produce. The theoretical ideal AFR for complete combustion, the stoichiometric Air-Fuel Ratio, is around 14.7:1 for petrol powered engines, effectively meaning that in order to completely burn 1 kg of fuel, we need 14.7 kg of air..... Make sense so far?? :dontknow:

When the Air-Fuel Ratio is higher than the stoichiometric ratio (like the 16.5:1 or whatever that our Spyders leave the factory with) the Air-Fuel mixture is called lean & generally runs a touch hot as well as not quite as efficiently NOR as powerfully as it could be across the given rev range, so you'll sometimes have to use a little more throttle to achieve/maintain a given power output & therefore speed, likely burning extra fuel in the process... And when the AFR is lower than the stoichiometric ratio, saaayy, 13.7:1, the Air-Fuel mixture is called rich & runs cooler, altho possibly a little more powerfully (until you pass that point of diminishing returns! ) and while you might not need quite so much throttle for a given power output at any specific revs, as the mixture gets richer it will use more fuel. Still with me?!? :dontknow:

So given that an AFR of 16.5:1 is lean & less powerful while 13.7:1 is rich but more powerful, if you're not too worried about that Cat Converter working at its best (or at all, cos you've fitted a Cat Eliminator & don't need to worry about creating a 'hot spot' in the exhaust any more!?! ) then an ECU Upgrade can set your AFR anywhere that suits you for your desired power output, taking fuel economy into account as you desire; or it could even set the AFR to 14.7:1 across the widest rev range possible - which just happens to be the IDEAL OPTIMUM setting for both Power & Fuel Efficiency. Best of both Worlds - more power AND better fuel economy, and running a touch cooler too! hyea:

Make sense??

Now it does. Thanks! I think bottom line then, is the only downside is dirtier exhaust?

 

[Peter Aawen]

That's pretty much it, until/unless you go too far down the scale from that ideal of 14.7:1 AFR! :thumbup:

 

[Lew L]

.

Pete,

Back in my hot rodding days of changing intake systems, We ALWAYS checked for full throttle plate opening. From what I've gathered, the 1330 throttle body is limited by 10 or 15% from full opening. Easy horsepower and torque increase. The ECU flash can also also open the throttle a bit faster. Just request how much faster you would like it to open. When I flashed the ecu in my Magnum Hemi. I could choose between 0% and up to 20% faster. I started at 15 % and had to back down to 10% faster throttle response.
I have the Stage 1 flash on my :spyder2: and Its GREAT

PS: Could have something to do with thermodynamics of water.........:joke::joke::joke:

 

[UtahPete]

.

Pete,

Back in my hot rodding days of changing intake systems, We ALWAYS checked for full throttle plate opening. From what I've gathered, the 1330 throttle body is limited by 10 or 15% from full opening. Easy horsepower and torque increase. The ECU flash can also also open the throttle a bit faster. Just request how much faster you would like it to open. When I flashed the ecu in my Magnum Hemi. I could choose between 0% and up to 20% faster. I started at 15 % and had to back down to 10% faster throttle response.
I have the Stage 1 flash on my :spyder2: and Its GREAT

PS: Could have something to do with thermodynamics of water.........:joke::joke::joke:

I'm never going to live that one down, am I? :cheers:

 

[Terrance]

I am not a mechanic or a tuner. From what I have read and been told the most common route to increased HP with a remapped ECU is to raise the engine RPM limit to a higher number. Unless you run it all the way up in the rev range you will be paying for the bragging rights not everyday usability.

I have a friend who has a Kawasaki Voyager. He had his ECU remapped because the bike ran tremendously hot. They richened up the fuel to air ratio and told him that he was to run premium fuel. He said it made a world of difference but admits it costs him a couple of mpg.

 

[rjinaz86323]

From what I have read and been told the most common route to increased HP with a remapped ECU is to raise the engine RPM limit to a higher number. Unless you run it all the way up in the rev range you will be paying for the bragging rights not everyday usability.

It doesn't do any good to raise the RPM limit if the engine is not producing more horsepower at the new limit. Most engines, including the Rotax, reach max horsepower before the reach the RPM limit.

 

[bsavulis]

Thanks for the education

Thank you for the very well explained information. I can honestly say I learned something (actually quite a bit). Again thank you very much for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Lew L]

I'm never going to live that one down, am I? :cheers:

You know that I'm joking right, Pete??? Sarchasm is the lowest form of humor------ but I'm good at it. And yes, I'll stop now.

Lew L

 

[Lew L]

It doesn't do any good to raise the RPM limit if the engine is not producing more horsepower at the new limit. Most engines, including the Rotax, reach max horsepower before the reach the RPM limit.

When I had my ECUflashed with the stage 1 level, I did NOT have them raise the RPM limit. The stage 1 flash is GREAT.

Lew L

 

[UtahPete]

You know that I'm joking right, Pete??? Sarchasm is the lowest form of humor------ but I'm good at it. And yes, I'll stop now.

Lew L

Of course. All good...