998cc dogging out and chatter in 1st and reverse

[chromehorse]

Hi, 1st time here and ive read several forum pages but have yet to read were someone had a fix.
i picked up a 2012 RT SE semi auto with 2500 miles on and and all was well the 1st cpl hundred miles and THEN taking off it was doggy and cutting out at low RPM's say up to 15 mph and high RPM's and higher speeds it never missed of cut out at all. now on the way to works 6 miles wide open all i could get was 53 mph and when i got to work it smelt warm and smoke was coming from under the seat ( no fire ):clap:

funny part is one day it runs fine and the next day gremlins. I did do the purge valve delete and it ren great for a few days and then back to missing and cutting out.

@nd issue is 1st and and reverse chatter coming from sounds like behind me. in 1st gear it chatters till i reach about 3 mph and it shots, might do it 50% of the time:banghead: And to think i traded my Harley in for this headach ray:nojoke

I am at my witts end and going to be at the mercy of a dealer screwing me$$$$$$$$$

 

[Eviltwin]

Runs fine one day and then problems the next sounds like electrical issues to me. 2500 miles on an 8 year old bike says the bike sat for most of it's life and that is generally not good. Have you checked to see if there are any codes? Could you tell if the smoke smelled like wires burning or maybe oil burning. Could be it was overfilled by somebody that doesnt know the procedure. Guessing the dealer wasn't affiliated with Can Am?

 

[Peter Aawen]

Have you check & replaced the vacuum lines?? :dontknow:

If they aren't already silicone (& the OEM hoses weren't! ) then they will be old enough by now to have well & truly perished enough to be bleeding excess air into the intakes, making the engine run lean, idle poorly, & basically produce exactly the symptoms you describe.... at least initially . Then as time progresses the symptoms start getting worse & you end up with codes & Limp Home mode! :shocked:

So check & replace the vacuum hoses - there's quite a few threads & even a video or two about this! :thumbup:

Good Luck! :cheers:

 

[Wmoater]

No expert but that’s 9 years old and only 2500 miles. Fuel was guncked in there for sure. Plug wires are probably brittle, battery if original is shot. I’d take all the plastic off and start with a good clean up. Iowa is hot so it sat there for a long time fuel for sure evaporated and probably cracked or checked all the hoses. Look at the hoses and replace. Next look for white flakes around all the connections. Spray some wd40 on everything. Anything that was in the system sitting there for those 9 years you just pumped through the entire system in the first 100 miles and stirred it up. Jets, carbs, filters, plugs, hoses just got clogged, burnt or cracked. If the engine is firing and running then start with cleaning and replace fuel lines, breather lines etc. run a serious dose of sea foam. Do it again at 1/2 gallon doses. With all the plastic off look for dry rotted wires next. Rubber and 100 degree days sitting for a decade will start to crack and become brittle.

 

[chromehorse]

Runs fine one day and then problems the next sounds like electrical issues to me. 2500 miles on an 8 year old bike says the bike sat for most of it's life and that is generally not good. Have you checked to see if there are any codes? Could you tell if the smoke smelled like wires burning or maybe oil burning. Could be it was overfilled by somebody that doesnt know the procedure. Guessing the dealer wasn't affiliated with Can Am?

after 500+ miles this was the 1st time it smoked and dogged out that bad. and older gentleman bought it and used it around town and then a lady got it and couldnt get her bike license so thats when i took it over. it did finally show P1171 code.

 

[chromehorse]

Have you check & replaced the vacuum lines?? :dontknow:

If they aren't already silicone (& the OEM hoses weren't! ) then they will be old enough by now to have well & truly perished enough to be bleeding excess air into the intakes, making the engine run lean, idle poorly, & basically produce exactly the symptoms you describe.... at least initially . Then as time progresses the symptoms start getting worse & you end up with codes & Limp Home mode! :shocked:

So check & replace the vacuum hoses - there's quite a few threads & even a video or two about this! :thumbup:

Good Luck! :cheers:

is there a place that shows all the vacuum lines ? i have ran good fun through it several times and a whole can of seafoam.

 

[chromehorse]

No expert but that’s 9 years old and only 2500 miles. Fuel was guncked in there for sure. Plug wires are probably brittle, battery if original is shot. I’d take all the plastic off and start with a good clean up. Iowa is hot so it sat there for a long time fuel for sure evaporated and probably cracked or checked all the hoses. Look at the hoses and replace. Next look for white flakes around all the connections. Spray some wd40 on everything. Anything that was in the system sitting there for those 9 years you just pumped through the entire system in the first 100 miles and stirred it up. Jets, carbs, filters, plugs just got clogged or burnt. If the engine is firing and running then start with cleaning and replace fuel lines, breather lines etc. run a serious dose of sea foam. Do it again at 1/2 gallon doses. With all the plastic off look for dry rotted wires next. Rubber and 100 degree days sitting for a decade will start to crack and become brittle.

this is fuel injected as there is no choke and it was always stored in a garage when not ridden.

 

[Peter Aawen]

..... it did finally show P1171 code.

P1171 Module ECM
System too lean bank 1.
Injection & fuel supply system.
Check injector & fuel supply system.

See my previous post - running at WoT while running lean on any cylinder will likely cause high exhaust gas temps on a petrol engine, overheating the exhaust pipe, especially the headers/engine pipes &/or any obstructions/bends/joins like at the cat converter/eliminator (if you've got one of them!) & causing any debris &/or oil/road residue to burn off! Add in the likely compounding effect from any of those other things mentioned above, and you've got your symptoms pretty much in a nutshell! :lecturef_smilie:

There are pics of where the vacuum hoses are in some of the numerous threads here on the Forum discussing this problem, it's a common occurrence on the V-twins so it comes up fairly often. And there's also some good diagrams in the 'glove box manual or in the workshop manuals that you can buy on-line for less than $50. :thumbup:

 

[Wmoater]

Just curious. You said whole can of sea foam. That’s 40 gallons of gas. What was your ratio? Straight sea foam will mess up things. I’d remove all gas and try starting with ethanol free gas and see if it goes away.

 

[chromehorse]

Just curious. You said whole can of sea foam. That’s 40 gallons of gas. What was your ratio? Straight sea foam will mess up things. I’d remove all gas and try starting with ethanol free gas and see if it goes away.

can of seaform with about 5 tanks of fuel.. i burn ethanol in nothing, that is garbage fuel

 

[chromehorse]

P1171 Module ECM
System too lean bank 1.
Injection & fuel supply system.
Check injector & fuel supply system.

See my previous post - running at WoT while running lean on any cylinder will likely cause high exhaust gas temps on a petrol engine, overheating the exhaust pipe, especially the headers/engine pipes &/or any obstructions/bends/joins like at the cat converter/eliminator (if you've got one of them!) & causing any debris &/or oil/road residue to burn off! Add in the likely compounding effect from any of those other things mentioned above, and you've got your symptoms pretty much in a nutshell! :lecturef_smilie:

There are pics of where the vacuum hoses are in some of the numerous threads here on the Forum discussing this problem, it's a common occurrence on the V-twins so it comes up fairly often. And there's also some good diagrams in the 'glove box manual or in the workshop manuals that you can buy on-line for less than $50. :thumbup:

so bad vacuum lines can cause a P1171 code ?

 

[chromehorse]

Any advise on the 1st gear and reverse chatter on take off ?

 

[BajaRon]

You've got a lot of things going on at the same time. Each with a fair number of possible causes.

For running bad. You might consider replacing the fuel filter, if for nothing else but to eliminate it as a potential problem. All that fuel treatment may have cleaned up your fuel tank, and flushed everything into the fuel filter. If the fuel filter is clogged, it could be creating the lean condition.
You might want to run your fuel down and look into the fuel tank to inspect for rust, etc.
Bad spark plug wires. They are junk when brand new, and go downhill from there.
Fouled spark plug or plugs.
PCV issues (which it sounds like you dealt with. Just be sure there are no leaks).
Vacuum hoses on the throttle body bad. Guaranteed they are either bad now, or will be.
Oil in the airbox which means oiled throttle body. It would be a very good idea to check your oil level (properly) to eliminate and over or underfill condition. Properly means, you do not check it cold, or without riding it at least 5 miles.
Less likely, but possible. A failing coil pack. I would look at everything else first. But not rule it out.

'Chatter on takeoff' is not really enough information to go on. But I can guess a bit.
Could be a slipping clutch. If someone used the wrong oil, it can create a lot of issues. The 998 can run on just about any oil in the right viscosity range. But the wet clutch on the SE5 is very temperamental. People have told me; 'I've run this oil in every wet clutch bike I've ever owned and never had a problem.' Not a good idea. Because the Rotax 998 isn't like any other wet clutch you've ever run. There are a number of oils that work as well or better than the BRP lubricant in the 998. So, you aren't stuck with the BRP product. You just need to get one of the tried and true lubricants. This is not true of the 1330 motor. BRP has fixed the finicky wet clutch issue there.
Could be your front sprocket is failing. You can check this by looking at the bolt area in the center of the pulley. If you have a fair amount of red dust. This is not a good sign.

The 2012 RT is a good machine. But as others have mentioned. Sitting is not at all good for any vehicle. Maybe even more so for a Spyder. The engine isn't even broken in yet and is 10 years old (2012 models were built in 2011). Not a death notice. Not even necessarily a big worry. Just need to be prepared to work out the issues that come with this amount of time sitting for any vehicle.

If after some cursory inspection and inexpensive part change-outs, you don't find any causes or cures. And you don't want to go any further. It might not be a bad idea to take it to a good dealer and have them diagnose everything. You won't know how much it will hurt your pocketbook until you get that information. Getting definitive answers is, many times, worth the cost. You may find out it's nothing more than a number of relatively inexpensive and easy solutions. If it is expensive. You will have the advantage of deciding where to go before throwing a lot of 'Maybes' at it.

I wish you good luck. And hope the Spyder family can be of some help.

 

[chromehorse]

You've got a lot of things going on at the same time. Each with a fair number of possible causes.

For running bad. You might consider replacing the fuel filter, if for nothing else but to eliminate it as a potential problem. All that fuel treatment may have cleaned up your fuel tank, and flushed everything into the fuel filter. If the fuel filter is clogged, it could be creating the lean condition.
You might want to run your fuel down and look into the fuel tank to inspect for rust, etc.
Bad spark plug wires. They are junk when brand new, and go downhill from there.
Fouled spark plug or plugs.
PCV issues (which it sounds like you dealt with. Just be sure there are no leaks).
Vacuum hoses on the throttle body bad. Guaranteed they are either bad now, or will be.
Oil in the airbox which means oiled throttle body. It would be a very good idea to check your oil level (properly) to eliminate and over or underfill condition. Properly means, you do not check it cold, or without riding it at least 5 miles.
Less likely, but possible. A failing coil pack. I would look at everything else first. But not rule it out.

'Chatter on takeoff' is not really enough information to go on. But I can guess a bit.
Could be a slipping clutch. If someone used the wrong oil, it can create a lot of issues. The 998 can run on just about any oil in the right viscosity range. But the wet clutch on the SE5 is very temperamental. People have told me; 'I've run this oil in every wet clutch bike I've ever owned and never had a problem.' Not a good idea. Because the Rotax 998 isn't like any other wet clutch you've ever run. There are a number of oils that work as well or better than the BRP lubricant in the 998. So, you aren't stuck with the BRP product. You just need to get one of the tried and true lubricants. This is not true of the 1330 motor. BRP has fixed the finicky wet clutch issue there.
Could be your front sprocket is failing. You can check this by looking at the bolt area in the center of the pulley. If you have a fair amount of red dust. This is not a good sign.

The 2012 RT is a good machine. But as others have mentioned. Sitting is not at all good for any vehicle. Maybe even more so for a Spyder. The engine isn't even broken in yet and is 10 years old (2012 models were built in 2011). Not a death notice. Not even necessarily a big worry. Just need to be prepared to work out the issues that come with this amount of time sitting for any vehicle.

If after some cursory inspection and inexpensive part change-outs, you don't find any causes or cures. And you don't want to go any further. It might not be a bad idea to take it to a good dealer and have them diagnose everything. You won't know how much it will hurt your pocketbook until you get that information. Getting definitive answers is, many times, worth the cost. You may find out it's nothing more than a number of relatively inexpensive and easy solutions. If it is expensive. You will have the advantage of deciding where to go before throwing a lot of 'Maybes' at it.

I wish you good luck. And hope the Spyder family can be of some help.

i am going to tear into it in the next cpl of day and change vacuum lines and i did just order GOOD plug wires and plugs and air filter as far as the CHATTER there seams to be a ton of post about the same issue and an on going issue with Can Am that they are not willing to fix. Mine only does it maybe 50% of the time hot or cold, make not difference but after 3 mph and 20 feet the noise and vibration stops. here is another post by someone else and just 1 of many.. Can Am needs to get with the program.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...ing-off&p=688191&highlight=chatter#post688191

 

[2RTsGV]

Have you check & replaced the vacuum lines?? :dontknow:

If they aren't already silicone (& the OEM hoses weren't! ) then they will be old enough by now to have well & truly perished enough to be bleeding excess air into the intakes, making the engine run lean, idle poorly, & basically produce exactly the symptoms you describe.... at least initially . Then as time progresses the symptoms start getting worse & you end up with codes & Limp Home mode! :shocked:

So check & replace the vacuum hoses - there's quite a few threads & even a video or two about this! :thumbup:

Good Luck! :cheers:

Agree with Peter on this, any cracks in the vac lines will cause this issue, also after some time the vac lines tend to lose their grip on the post which can also cause issues like this. Best to replace with the silicone lines.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

i am going to tear into it in the next cpl of day and change vacuum lines and i did just order GOOD plug wires and plugs and air filter as far as the CHATTER there seams to be a ton of post about the same issue and an on going issue with Can Am that they are not willing to fix. Mine only does it maybe 50% of the time hot or cold, make not difference but after 3 mph and 20 feet the noise and vibration stops. here is another post by someone else and just 1 of many.. Can Am needs to get with the program.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...ing-off&p=688191&highlight=chatter#post688191

Chrome - And as Ron mentioned, don't forget the fuel filter. It was right there where you did the purge valve delete. And inspect that entire intake not just the intake filter. There might be a dead squirrel in there.

Some history - The ton of posts you read about clutch chatter were all about MY 2013 998 machines and up. It was an unintended consequence of a design change of the clutch. There's no fix, software or otherwise. None needed. BRP investigated and put out this document to explain it. (might take a few seconds to load)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k3MDvokZgr44sLYeCooNiuha1n25yxT2/view?usp=sharing

Your 2012 is not part of this population and your clutch chatter needs addressed. Ron went through it all with you. The clutch may have been abused in the previous life. Or maybe when you get the engine running right, it resolves itself. Since you are new you could also benefit from reading this thread as it applies to the 998 machine that you have, so you don't abuse anything yourself. Good luck with it.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...t-Do-s-and-Do-Nots-quot-for-new-Spyder-owners

 

[Mikey]

Many of the members have given you the same info, so it's time to take it in the garage and strip her down and do a full service, oil, wires, plugs, filters, vac lines, belt tension,ect,ect! Then take her out and see how she acts, I believe it will make a world of difference. And you will get to know her a little better!! That year is for the most part a rock solid year, ot has just sat to long with out being used! Good luck, keep us posted and don't be afraid of asking the questions, our answers are cheaper than taking t to the shop!!:2thumbs:opcorn:

 

[chromehorse]

Ok. I got the 2 vacuum lines off n they look like new, not one single crack or mark on them. So hopefully the new wires n plugs will fix the ****ty running n the p1171 code.

 

[Woodaddict]

they may look NEW, but bend them looking for microcracks. may even need a magnifier. get some silicone ones

 

[Eviltwin]

I did all the work for the plugs and vac lines and documented it here: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?127764-Winter-Maintenance-on-the-RT

The vac lines are pretty easy, on the right side of the bike facing forward so only a couple of panels to remove and you are there. I would start there before going much deeper. Plug wires are super easy, on the same side as the vac hoses. The other side, not so much. I ended up taking the whole front or Frunk off which made enough room to get the airbox off and out since it blocks access to the other plug/wire.

I would also take a good look at the battery. If its a few years old or the connections are not tight and clean, a low voltage can cause lots of interesting issues/codes that may lead you in the wrong direction.

I do stand my my initial assessment of runs great one day and lousy on the next as more symptomatic of electrical issues than fuel or vacuum. But I would not rule anything out. And as you have seen here so far, there are lots of folks willing to help, so keep us up to date on what you find. It's a good bike and you can get the bugs worked out of it. But it needs to be run to stay in shape. I take mine out usually once a week, alternating it wit my other bike. Good luck.

Bob