Cornering Nightmare - Update

[pidjones]

I ride less "spirited" than you, maybe. And I do have a '21 RTL with lowered COG and perhaps improved suspension. Only have a couple thousand on it so far, but the road we live off of has much tighter turns that the Dragon and I've yet to feel Nanny kick in.

 

[BajaRon]

We have a 2018 Spyder RT which is the perfect vehicle for our needs....unless we are in a hurry. During casual driving it performs better than expected and there are so many things about it that we love. During spirited driving, however, I hate it! There is a sensor somewhere that slams the brakes on or cuts fuel out if it determines I am taking a corner too fast. I believe it to be the brakes but can't tell for 100% sure. This happens mostly in town but also happened the other day on the highway at about 65mph around a fairly tight corner. Mind you, this is not hanging off the saddle, trying to get the back end to slide around (which would be impossible given this feature) but merely spirited driving. I am a seasoned motorcycle rider for 50+ years, having owned everything from 100cc dirt bikes to a Moto Guzzi 1000SP to an '82 Harley Sturgis so I have a pretty good feel for motorcycles and their idiosyncrasies. We have adapted to the Spyder, having put over 10,000 mi on it and I describe the steering as more similar to a snowmobile than a motorcycle.

I have been to 2 different dealers and one of the service techs took it for a test ride, was able to duplicate the phenomenon and told me that was normal. I do not believe this to be the case and am looking for more experienced feedback, explanation or better yet, how do I override the sensor. I will close this with a further elucidation as to how violent the bike slows. My wife's helmet usually slams into the back of mine! followed by a few choice words directed at the manufacturer. I LOVE/HATE my Spyder.

There are a number of things that enter into this equation. The first is riding style. You may already know this and are already taking these steps. But it's worth revisiting.

There is a saying that 'Smooth is Fast'. Sudden or jerky movements into a turn can really upset the Nanny and cause her to react in the ways that you describe. Working on braking before the turn, entering wide, turning to the apex and accelerating out can go a long way towards reducing or eliminating the Nanny's interference. To a point. Because 'Smooth is Fast' will eventually run up against the suspension deficiencies built into the Spyder which, in my opinion, severely limit the excellent handling that the Spyder is capable of. Various models and years have varying amounts of this problem. Some being much worse than others.

At the very front of the line is that the stock sway bar is too weak, and there is no Pre-Load adjustment on the front shocks. Upgrading the sway bar will make a big difference to handling, stability, and toning down the Nanny. She never goes away, (which is a good thing, because she is needed) but these suspension improvements will go a long way towards managing her.

The sway bar does things that the shocks cannot do. And the shocks do things that the sway bar cannot do. Depending on how you approach these 2 components, trying to compensate for one with the other can give an unnecessarily harsh ride at the benign end. And a dangerous ride at the other end. The sway bar and shocks will, ideally, work in harmony to give you both awesome, confidence inspiring handling, and a great ride.

Many people stop with the sway bar, or upgraded shocks. But if whichever path you decide to take does not quite get you to WHERE you want to go. Upgrading the component you didn't address is usually the next step to take. The sky is pretty much the limit for what you can spend in this pursuit. But you can achieve probably 90% of the machines potential without braking the bank. And frankly, 90% is probably more than most will ever use.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Agree with BajaRon. Suspension is a package deal. There will be a difference with each change, but only for what the component is designed for. I mentioned having to secure the sway bar bushings on my Spyder, these were loose. Made a difference but still could not fully compensate for the excessive lean/roll. Add new shocks, now we're getting somewhere.

BajaRon's sway bar and BajaRon's front shock preload adjusters, with new front shock springs will make a huge difference. May also wan to read this thread by spacetiger: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?60792-2012-RT-S-SE5-Front-Suspension Check out the spring collection on eBay.

Some innovative ideas out there.

Cheers

 

[KX5062]

I also agree with all that's been written and would second the motion that the stock Kenda tires are not up to the task either. The difference in handling between the OEM Kenda's and top notch automotive tire is both subtle and dramatic at the same time.

 

[ThreeWheels]

This thread is getting a bit too long to read all the comments, so I'm probably repeating what's been said.
The Spyder has a VSS (Vehicle Stability System) otherwise known as "The Nanny" (with apologies to Fran Drescher).
Basically, it doesn't let you do any maneuvers that could cause a roll over.
The first time mine kicked in while making an accelerating left turn at an intersection during traffic, well, it caused a skidmark in my shorts because I thought I wouldn't get out of the way of an incoming car.
The point is, the nanny will kick in and slow the bike down in certain situations to save your ass.
I see two possibilities:
If the nanny is faulty in some fashion, it might kick in prematurely,
There are a myriad of sensors that go into the nanny, including wheel speed, handlebar angle, engine speed, and who knows what else. I think the color of the Spyder is also a factor. We all know the Anthracite Gray is the fastest color.
Have the dealer check out all the sensors and the sensor connection to make sure the VSS system is running properly and that you have the latest updates.
If the nanny is functioning properly, then you're overdriving the nanny, probably driving on the verge of unsafe, and need to tone it down a bit.
The RT is, essentially a touring machine.
Perhaps you'd be happier with an F3 or Ryker, something that's more sporty ?

As always, my free advice comes with a double your money back guarantee,

 

[Circ]

Thank you to all who responded, especially those who gave constructive, positive feedback regarding the nanny and NOT my riding style. I have taken the first step and replaced the sway bar with a Baja Ron. It is a huge improvement and based on many of your suggestions, I will either be installing pre-load adjusters, stiffer springs or new shocks. My extensive motorhead experience has taught me to only do 1 upgrade at a time and put some seat time in before attempting another upgrade. That is why I have 12k mi on the machine before any changes were made. The Nanny is slightly muted with the new sway bar but I can still kick it in by tightening the radius on 'almost any' corner. If the corner is off camber, the nanny comes on with very little rider input. That fact alone tells me something is not right.

 

[Woodaddict]

just one aspect of nanny is all 3 wheels are metered, for anti lock brakes, if one slightly lifts, that shows slower rotation of 1 of 3 wheels and nanny kicks in

 

[SpyderGoldwingOwner]

I ride both a 2018 Goldwing DCT and a 2020 Spyder RT. Here is what has helped me enjoy the Spyder more. Please try it!

I added the Baja Ron Sway/Link bars
Get a laser alignment

Try this for a day on cornering the Spyder.

1-If cornering left-push the bars with your right hand-relax your left hand-don't pull on the bars. It's along for the ride
2-Do the opposite when turning right
3-Look thru the turns-any slow down do before the turns with down shifting
4-accelerate thru all turns and lean in to the turn
5-practice

The above works for me. Good luck

 

[Joel The Biker]

Go to the dealer or find someone with BUDS near you and reset your YAW RATE SENSOR. It requires the spyder to be parked on a level surface with someone sitting on the seat during the reset. This should solve your problem and make it less sensitive.

 

[Circ]

Thank you Joel, that sounds like exactly what I need to do. I did take it to one dealer and as I stated previously, they told me it was normal and nothing could be adjusted. I will be back in Las Vegas (where I purchased) in a few weeks and intend to pursue that path. This just can't be right. I am not throwing the bike into corners like a madman, nor am I lifting either of the front inside wheels off the ground but since the springs are soft, I am creating a yaw factor. I do believe the laser alignment could be (as some have suggested) beneficial but I did not want to do that until I put new rubber on the front (shortly). Can't wrap my head around the alignment affecting the yaw but I suppose anything is possible.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Can't wrap my head around the alignment affecting the yaw but I suppose anything is possible.

I would say it doesn't except as a secondary effect. Misalignment can lead to understeer and oversteer, which may be some of what you are experiencing. The extra lean caused by sudden changes in the turn caused by under and over steer can be reflected in the yaw sensor.

 

[PMK]

Thank you Joel, that sounds like exactly what I need to do. I did take it to one dealer and as I stated previously, they told me it was normal and nothing could be adjusted. I will be back in Las Vegas (where I purchased) in a few weeks and intend to pursue that path. This just can't be right. I am not throwing the bike into corners like a madman, nor am I lifting either of the front inside wheels off the ground but since the springs are soft, I am creating a yaw factor. I do believe the laser alignment could be (as some have suggested) beneficial but I did not want to do that until I put new rubber on the front (shortly). Can't wrap my head around the alignment affecting the yaw but I suppose anything is possible.

Joel has an excellent recommendation. To clarify a bit further, his suggestion, you must realize and understand that the handlebars pointed straight and the wheels properly aligned is strictly a mechanical function and setting. Now to complicate this, the Spyder has two sensors, one is the steering angle sensor, the other is the yaw sensor.

The steering angle sensor is essentially attached to the handlebars. With the bars straight, it is nulled or zeroed. Turn the bars and it tells the computer. If not nulled, the sensor could tell the computer the bars are turned, when actually they are straight. So mechanically all could be correct, but electronically there could be an error.

The yaw sensor, like the steering angle sensor converts a mechanical input to electronic input. As Joel mentioned, the Yaw sensor must be nulled under certain conditions. The entire vehicle is the mechanical input for yaw. If Yaw is not nulled, it tells the computer there is a sideways input such as sliding, or other input parameter. Again, if not nulled, mechanically the Spyder could be rolling straight ahead, but the computer is being told otherwise.

Correctly done by an experienced person that knows how to correctly align a Spyder, they should null both sensors. Unfortunately, not all dealers understand or are able to accomplish a correct alignment on a Spyder. Additionally, if you were to take your Spyder to the dealer, ask them to reset the two sensors, most likely they will not do it based on your words. The dealer tech will insist on accomplishing a multitude of stuff, that may ultimately get done this simple 5 minute task. All the best with getting it resolved.

 

[Circ]

THANK YOU PMK! That is the most in depth and logical explanation I have received so far. I have been reluctant to take it in to a dealer...again...due to what they told me the first time. Sounds like I need to keep trying to find a dealer with a bit more knowledge, experience and credibility. NOW... anyone have any ideas on where I might find such a dealer. We travel and the Spyder goes piggyback between the Volvo 730 and our fifth wheel which means I am not locked into a particular location. Areas I frequent are: Vegas (as mentioned), Phoenix, Denver and Rapid City. Note: The Spyder looks kinda cool on the back of the truck, I will try to figure out how to add that to my profile page.

 

[pegasus1300]

Give Young Power Sports in Bountiful Ut (Salt Lake) a call.They have done well for me. Also Moto United in Draper Ut.

 

[PMK]

THANK YOU PMK! That is the most in depth and logical explanation I have received so far. I have been reluctant to take it in to a dealer...again...due to what they told me the first time. Sounds like I need to keep trying to find a dealer with a bit more knowledge, experience and credibility. NOW... anyone have any ideas on where I might find such a dealer. We travel and the Spyder goes piggyback between the Volvo 730 and our fifth wheel which means I am not locked into a particular location. Areas I frequent are: Vegas (as mentioned), Phoenix, Denver and Rapid City. Note: The Spyder looks kinda cool on the back of the truck, I will try to figure out how to add that to my profile page.

I should add also, ideally, resetting the sensors will end the concerns. I suggest though that it takes only a moment to have the tech note onto paper, the current settings prior to resetting.

Honestly, since you roam about, seriously consider getting in touch with Squared Away. Have them check the sensors prior to any other changes. They then could accomplish the reset, or better still, have them correctly align the Spyder, then accomplish the reset. They could even accomplish a sway bar upgrade or other work you deem viable.

I did notice you had mentioned holding off on alignment until new tires or something similar. Just be aware, the Spyders primitive steering design only allows adjustment for wheel toe setting. There is no caster or camber adjustments to be made. Therefore, I believe it could be a benefit to have all the work done, even if replacement tires are installed at a later date. There will be no need for another alignment, unless you have tapped a front wheel hard enough to bend something.

 

[PMK]

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...w-SpyderLovers-Sponsor-Squared-Away-Alignment

Speak with Ann and Joe, explain to Joe what is going on. He has done many alignments and is not a dealer, so he should be able to work with you away from a flat rate pay scale. Unless you went to a dealer tech such ad Shawn Smoake, as I mentioned, the service writer will note your concern. The tech will likely blow off anything you have explained, and then start troubleshooting on his own, hopefully to maybe resolve the issue. Again, all the best with it, but seriously, give Joe a call. Even ask him to read these posts and call you back.

 

[canamjhb]

This has been an interesting thread to follow. A lot of good advice, especially in the last 2 days. I would trust Joe and Ann (Squared Away) more than most dealers. And, as luck would have it, they are based in Vegas. I know they have been traveling the country for BRP doing dealer demo rides. If they are unavailable, I'm sure they can steer you to the right place to have your issues addressed. Good luck..... Jim

 

[RayBJ]

Re: Alignment after tire swap.
My RT was aligned with the Kenda tires. I swapped to car tires soon after and put ~3000 miles on the RT before I had it re-checked and the RT was still spot on.

 

[Steve W.]

Touching back a bit on the suspension. You mentioned extensive experience and changing just one thing at a time. Great concept.

In the 2-wheeler world, I am amused by the riders that install thicker fork oil to prevent diving while braking. It takes quite a bit to convince them that it's the SPRINGS that control how MUCH it dives, the thicker oil only slows how QUICKLY it dives.

Carry that concept to the Spyder "shocks". Remember that the "shocks" are actually two components. The SPRINGS will control how MUCH the suspension moves, the DAMPERS will control how QUICKLY it moves.

Except for the Q5 tires and a Baja Ron (anti-)sway bar, the suspension on my wife's Spyder is all stock. Works great for the way we ride, we have never experienced Nanny. In fact, I had the Spyder in a parking lot a week or so ago, and was able to lift a wheel in a tight turn without Nanny noticing. Not sure that is proper, but we don't ride that hard, anyway.

.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Touching back a bit on the suspension. You mentioned extensive experience and changing just one thing at a time. Great concept.

In the 2-wheeler world, I am amused by the riders that install thicker fork oil to prevent diving while braking. It takes quite a bit to convince them that it's the SPRINGS that control how MUCH it dives, the thicker oil only slows how QUICKLY it dives.

Carry that concept to the Spyder "shocks". Remember that the "shocks" are actually two components. The SPRINGS will control how MUCH the suspension moves, the DAMPERS will control how QUICKLY it moves.

Except for the Q5 tires and a Baja Ron (anti-)sway bar, the suspension on my wife's Spyder is all stock. Works great for the way we ride, we have never experienced Nanny. In fact, I had the Spyder in a parking lot a week or so ago, and was able to lift a wheel in a tight turn without Nanny noticing. Not sure that is proper, but we don't ride that hard, anyway.

.

Lifted a front wheel and NANNY didn't notice !!!!. .... either something is wrong with your NANNY or in all the excitement you didn't see the ICON flash on the dash screen ( which is very easy to do in daylight ) . I trigger Nanny all the time when I'm at 9/10 ths. in the twistie's ... Sometimes I'll see it, but most times I won't, because I tend NOT to stare at my dashboard, when I'm at 9/10 ths. ..... good luck .... Mike :thumbup: