carry a pistol?

[zrc]

Well, I feel sorry for your friend that he felt so good about taking a life. Ask anyone in law enforcement and they'll tell you the best option is to give them what they want and let them leave.. then call the police. He could have easily been killed or got one of the patrons killed. He escalated the situation when it didn't need to be. 99% of the time they just want the money and will leave.

Whatever items they were taking were not worth the life of a young 18 year old - no way - no how.... no matter how much a of a bad person he was.

I can understand your point, and I will only counter with the following.

What happens when the open wallet, your car and your SOs valuables arent enough. What happens when they take all that and then take something else from your SO while you can do nothing?

When you live with a memory like that, you would give anything to change it. Trust me.

I would also like to state that I appreciate that you respect my right to carry. It is unfortunate that there are times in our lives where events trigger happenings that shift our views on things. Similar to me being ok with road blocks until I was unjustly held up by some wanna be douches in the little town of Athens, TN

 

[Clicker1944]

Just recently got my CCW permit. I ride with jeans and use an ankle holster.
Not to be too political but with the present admin and the trusty UN trying to take the right away from us. It was all the motivation I needed to finally get the license.
By the way Australia outlawed and collected guns from the citizens of that country...stats show crime has gone up 16% since that decision.

 

[Bob Denman]

Fly,
I also want to thank you for respecting my right to protect myself as I see fit. :thumbup:
I also respect your right to not protect yourself, and promise that I won't intervene if I see you being robbed. :shocked: :joke:

 

[steve635]

Well, I feel sorry for your friend that he felt so good about taking a life. Ask anyone in law enforcement and they'll tell you the best option is to give them what they want and let them leave.. then call the police. He could have easily been killed or got one of the patrons killed. He escalated the situation when it didn't need to be. 99% of the time they just want the money and will leave.

Whatever items they were taking were not worth the life of a young 18 year old - no way - no how.... no matter how much a of a bad person he was.

Wow, I would have never thought what I wrote could be construed quite that way. Let's look at the facts, 1. the bad guys had all of the valuables already, 2. the bad guys did not leave (they had the chance) 3. the bad guys were herding people towards the freezer (perhaps they just wanted to hand out pop-sickles but it's doubtful) 4. my friend took no joy in taking a life, or in wounding the other two, but rather was consoled by the fact that he had likely saved the lives of several innocent people, and that the people he shot had been perfectly willing to risk the lives (or likely to take the lives) of those they had robbed, his somewhat flippant remark was intended to remind the court that he was not the one that had intentionally threatened the lives of everyone present.
It has been stated repeatedly that one should just sheepishly (there's that analogy again) hand over the fruits of one's labor to any reprobate that approaches them, yet what sort of society does this encourage? If every thug realizes that he can rob anyone with impunity, does this encourage or discourage the next thug? Does it make it more or less likely that desperate people (who aren't necessarily thugs) will resort to crimes of oppertunity? The fact I quoted earlier regarding concealed carry laws versus crime rates bears further exploration. When states have liberalized their concealed carry laws (a trend through the late 80's to current time) the amount of violent crime has been reduced, in every case, and my friend and people like him (who do not see unlimited self degradation for self preservation as a virtue) are directly responsible for it.

 

[Bob Denman]

:agree: :firstplace: if the mutts don't know who is armed, they're less likely to do something stupid!

 

[pellcitypete]

So, let's see. The punk has the drop on you and wants money. Do you: 1-reach for your piece and scare him into shooting you, or 2- give up the wallet and call the insurance company? Hmmm. Anyways, you are right about us Canadians owning a lot of firearms, but it's mostly deer rifles and shotguns. So I suppose if somebody kicks my door in at 2 AM I'm just going to have to rely on my old 12 guage. Could be an illusion, but I just feel more comfortable in a country where every wingnut and emotional problem case can't just stop by the hardware store and pick up a Glock. Just my opinion. In any case, ryde safe Spyderlovers. Hope you never have to fire a round in anger.

:wrong:here in alabama they do a back ground check so. not just anyone cad go to the hardware store and pick up one! PS when I was 16 I worked for a quick mark not long after I was rob at gun point let me tell tell you if I didn't agree with carring a gun after that I did!

 

[Firefly]

Wow, I would have never thought what I wrote could be construed quite that way. Let's look at the facts, 1. the bad guys had all of the valuables already, 2. the bad guys did not leave (they had the chance) 3. the bad guys were herding people towards the freezer (perhaps they just wanted to hand out pop-sickles but it's doubtful) 4. my friend took no joy in taking a life, or in wounding the other two, but rather was consoled by the fact that he had likely saved the lives of several innocent people, and that the people he shot had been perfectly willing to risk the lives (or likely to take the lives) of those they had robbed, his somewhat flippant remark was intended to remind the court that he was not the one that had intentionally threatened the lives of everyone present.
It has been stated repeatedly that one should just sheepishly (there's that analogy again) hand over the fruits of one's labor to any reprobate that approaches them, yet what sort of society does this encourage? If every thug realizes that he can rob anyone with impunity, does this encourage or discourage the next thug? Does it make it more or less likely that desperate people (who aren't necessarily thugs) will resort to crimes of oppertunity? The fact I quoted earlier regarding concealed carry laws versus crime rates bears further exploration. When states have liberalized their concealed carry laws (a trend through the late 80's to current time) the amount of violent crime has been reduced, in every case, and my friend and people like him (who do not see unlimited self degradation for self preservation as a virtue) are directly responsible for it.

Well, we've gone way off the topic.... Guess we just see things far differently here. You have one specific example that you hold dear, but that example is the extreme situation that is rare. You have a better chance of being run over by a purple school bus than ever having to deal with a situation like that... and your friend was lucky he didn't get killed.

As far as my 'open wallet' policy - it doesn't increase crime or make it okay any more than telling a kid to wear a seat belt gives him permission to go get into an accident. It's simply the smartest move. I'd gladly give up all of my stupid monetary belongings to avoid blood shed--- mine... my SO .... or the criminals.


I don't recall you posting any data to back up your 'facts' about 'violent crime reduced due to CCW laws'. It's been awhile since I looked up the data, but my memory of what it stated was that it was a wash at best.

If you'd like to supply me with some data to back up your stance--- PM it to me and I'll gladly take a look into it.:thumbup:

 

[Firefly]

Fly,
I also want to thank you for respecting my right to protect myself as I see fit. :thumbup:
I also respect your right to not protect yourself, and promise that I won't intervene if I see you being robbed. :shocked: :joke:

I hope you're serious on both accounts. I seriously do NOT want someone pulling a gun during me being robbed and escalating the situation. I'll deal with things MY way.

The only ones I want doing such things would be the police... not citizen vigilantes.....

 

[Firefly]

I choose to be double safe....I carry my gun in my helmet.

:roflblack:

Just don't blow your brains out.... :roflblack:

 

[steve635]

Sideline.....

I always find it interesting when people believe they can stop pepole from breaking the law by making a new law (i.e. stricter gun laws). Robbery, assault, and murder are already against the law, yet some hold fervently to the belief that the same people who break these laws will obey the gun laws. Seems even our Justice Department breaks our gun laws (with executive privilege no less).

 

[spyder3]

Wow, I would have never thought what I wrote could be construed quite that way. Let's look at the facts, 1. the bad guys had all of the valuables already, 2. the bad guys did not leave (they had the chance) 3. the bad guys were herding people towards the freezer (perhaps they just wanted to hand out pop-sickles but it's doubtful) 4. my friend took no joy in taking a life, or in wounding the other two, but rather was consoled by the fact that he had likely saved the lives of several innocent people, and that the people he shot had been perfectly willing to risk the lives (or likely to take the lives) of those they had robbed, his somewhat flippant remark was intended to remind the court that he was not the one that had intentionally threatened the lives of everyone present.
It has been stated repeatedly that one should just sheepishly (there's that analogy again) hand over the fruits of one's labor to any reprobate that approaches them, yet what sort of society does this encourage? If every thug realizes that he can rob anyone with impunity, does this encourage or discourage the next thug? Does it make it more or less likely that desperate people (who aren't necessarily thugs) will resort to crimes of oppertunity? The fact I quoted earlier regarding concealed carry laws versus crime rates bears further exploration. When states have liberalized their concealed carry laws (a trend through the late 80's to current time) the amount of violent crime has been reduced, in every case, and my friend and people like him (who do not see unlimited self degradation for self preservation as a virtue) are directly responsible for it.

I guess if the thinking is to give it all up and(hope) wait until the perps actually do injure or kill someone the WRONG people are now injured or dead. :lecturef_smilie:. It makes no sense but no argument or discussion will likely change anyone's minds in either direction. :dontknow:

 

[Firefly]

Just recently got my CCW permit. I ride with jeans and use an ankle holster.
Not to be too political but with the present admin and the trusty UN trying to take the right away from us. It was all the motivation I needed to finally get the license.
By the way Australia outlawed and collected guns from the citizens of that country...stats show crime has gone up 16% since that decision.

The whole 'UN trying to take yer guns' thing is 100% unfounded..... not gonna happen.

Oh-- and 'this' administration isn't taking guns either-- they actually have never said much either way... and actually expanded gun owners' rights.. you can now carry in the National Parks due to the signature of our current leader.... :thumbup: All of those rumors were started by none other than gunshop owners to boost sales.... nojoke

No one's 2nd Amendment rights are going away... not now-- not ever.

 

[spyder3]

I hope you're serious on both accounts. I seriously do NOT want someone pulling a gun during me being robbed and escalating the situation. I'll deal with things MY way.

The only ones I want doing such things would be the police... not citizen vigilantes.....

Sorry, i have to call BS on this one. If your life is in danger and your buddy sees that and takes action you are NOT going to be to offended that he didn't wait for the police to arrive only to have to call the meat wagon to cart you off. :banghead:

That is just utter nonsense and hope your never in that position to begin with.

 

[Bob Denman]

I hope you're serious on both accounts. I seriously do NOT want someone pulling a gun during me being robbed and escalating the situation. I'll deal with things MY way.

The only ones I want doing such things would be the police... not citizen vigilantes.....

Oh I am... I respect your right to not want a life taken on your behalf.
But if you think that the LEOs are automatically better shots than a civilian with a firearm; think again!
When the NYSP switched from 357s to 9mms, one of my friends was a firearms instructor for them. Each August, he held a shooting day up at his house for his co-workers, and some of us non-LEO types as well.
Of course the targets were up and everybody was having fun putting all sorts of holes in the standard B-27 target at 12 yards. (A standard training exercise at the time...)
One fellow in uniform pulled his service piece out, and basically laced the target from elbow to elbow; afterward he said that he was shooting pretty well that day...
Up steps my Missus with her Glock 19 compact model, (The troopers all had the fullsize model 17), She then puts an entire magazine-full dead-center K5! :shocked:

Jaws dropped around her as she said, "You guys might get paid to shoot; but I LIKE to shoot!"

 

[Firefly]

Sorry, i have to call BS on this one. If your life is in danger and your buddy sees that and takes action you are NOT going to be to offended that he didn't wait for the police to arrive only to have to call the meat wagon to cart you off. :banghead:

That is just utter nonsense and hope your never in that position to begin with.

Huh????? yer not making sense.....

 

[Firefly]

Oh I am... I respect your right to not want a life taken on your behalf.
But if you think that the LEOs are automatically better shots than a civilian with a firearm; think again!
When the NYSP switched from 357s to 9mms, one of my friends was a firearms instructor for them. Each August, he held a shooting day up at his house for his co-workers, and some of us non-LEO types as well.
Of course the targets were up and everybody was having fun putting all sorts of holes in the standard B-27 target at 12 yards. (A standard training exercise at the time...)
One fellow in uniform pulled his service piece out, and basically laced the target from elbow to elbow; afterward he said that he was shooting pretty well that day...
Up steps my Missus with her Glock 19 compact model, (The troopers all had the fullsize model 17), She then puts an entire magazine-full dead-center K5! :shocked:

Jaws dropped around her as she said, "You guys might get paid to shoot; but I LIKE to shoot!"

Let me clarify.... it's not that I think cops are a better shot.. although I would guess they would better than many yahoos like the aforementioned 72 year old granny with 14 guns in her car--- :roflblack:

It's that the police have specific training on how to deal with such situations--- and they command authority just with their presence, vehicle, uniform, etc..... where the criminal is less likely (in my opinion) to want to take his chances. The criminal might think he can shoot you when you pull your gun.. and then get away...... but he knows he cannot outright a police radio... and if he shoots a cop he's in for a whole lot more trouble.

Basically I believe the cop could use his expertise and skills and never have to fire a shot to apprehend the criminal---- this is what happens in most cases. The EXTREME situations you all refer too are very rare and dare I say--- almost a straw-man argument. Even by all your own accounts out here---- very few have ever had to draw a weapon, let alone use one... or been in a situation where they would have. Add up all the years of everyone out here and you might have the chance of ONE incident requiring such force every 1,000 years of your life..... probably more like 10,000 years. Just not worth being worried about.

 

[spyder3]

Oh I am... I respect your right to not want a life taken on your behalf.
But if you think that the LEOs are automatically better shots than a civilian with a firearm; think again!
When the NYSP switched from 357s to 9mms, one of my friends was a firearms instructor for them. Each August, he held a shooting day up at his house for his co-workers, and some of us non-LEO types as well.
Of course the targets were up and everybody was having fun putting all sorts of holes in the standard B-27 target at 12 yards. (A standard training exercise at the time...)
One fellow in uniform pulled his service piece out, and basically laced the target from elbow to elbow; afterward he said that he was shooting pretty well that day...
Up steps my Missus with her Glock 19 compact model, (The troopers all had the fullsize model 17), She then puts an entire magazine-full dead-center K5! :shocked:

Jaws dropped around her as she said, "You guys might get paid to shoot; but I LIKE to shoot!"

NOW we know why you can't get the checkbook from her :roflblack::roflblack:

 

[Bob Denman]

I do see your point...
But I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it...
and again, I do respect your choice to not defend yourself should the need ever arise...

 

[zrc]

Let me clarify.... it's not that I think cops are a better shot.. although I would guess they would better than many yahoos like the aforementioned 72 year old granny with 14 guns in her car--- :roflblack:

It's that the police have specific training on how to deal with such situations--- and they command authority just with their presence, vehicle, uniform, etc..... where the criminal is less likely (in my opinion) to want to take his chances. The criminal might think he can shoot you when you pull your gun.. and then get away...... but he knows he cannot outright a police radio... and if he shoots a cop he's in for a whole lot more trouble.

Basically I believe the cop could use his expertise and skills and never have to fire a shot to apprehend the criminal---- this is what happens in most cases. The EXTREME situations you all refer too are very rare and dare I say--- almost a straw-man argument. Even by all your own accounts out here---- very few have ever had to draw a weapon, let alone use one... or been in a situation where they would have. Add up all the years of everyone out here and you might have the chance of ONE incident requiring such force every 1,000 years of your life..... probably more like 10,000 years. Just not worth being worried about.

These are the same people that set up the road block in Cuba and profiled you. I worry that you are still under some strain from the heat and the loss of your RS.

In direct reference to the red, depending on where you are at, those levels of expertise and skills are from people who went to an academy and are now volunteer police officers waiting to make a big bust or some such non-sense to make a name for themselves. Also, in Cleveland, TN about 2 months ago, a cop was killed, in a single car crash. Just his own vehicle, doing 120 mph in a 45 mph zone going around a curve to get to a place to try to help another officer make a bust. So following Seth's rules, he doubled the speed to 90, then added his nut size of 30 and failed to survive the curve. This would be the same person you are waiting to show up and resolve the situation with their expertise and skills.

I am down with your argument, however, everything I have heard you say about police in reference to road blocks in Cuba makes this an odd statement

Welcome to hades, I'm the devil's advocate.

 

[steve635]

Here ya' go....

"I don't recall you posting any data to back up your 'facts' about 'violent crime reduced due to CCW laws'. It's been awhile since I looked up the data, but my memory of what it stated was that it was a wash at best.

If you'd like to supply me with some data to back up your stance--- PM it to me and I'll gladly take a look into it.:thumbup: "

See Lott and Mustard study from 1997 (redid study in I believe 99 to verify results), most definitive study ever done on the topic by two University of Chicago professors. They noted an over 8% drop in murder, I believe 6% in rapes (this is from memory, but I know it's pretty darn close), and similar results in every catagory of violent crime. They also noticed a corresponding increase in property crimes (said there appeared to be a "replacement factor") such as car thefts and other crimes where there was little chance of confronting the victim. Interestingly they have done numerous updates, and have noted that the two years with the largest drops in violent crime, immediately followed the years with the highest gun sales. One was the year after Columbine when folks rushed to beat the knee-jerk laws they were expecting, the other was after the ***** election (no explanation necessary).