Canisterectomy Issues

[erinfire703]

:banghead:
Need some advice!!! I did a Canisterectomy on my 2011 RTS because I kept having an overwhelming fuel smell after every ride. Now I keep having a significant amount of fuel coming from the hose. I have read through several posts and I have tried several different routing options with the last going up under the dash with two loops and a filter (don’t really understand the filter part but a lot of people do it). Even put a wedge under where the vent hose attaches to the tank so the hose always goes up and stays above the tank for quite some time. Any suggestions would be great!:banghead:

 

[RangerRick]

Mine does not drip fuel per say, but an oily like residue comes out of mine also, I had ran my clear to the back under the back seat area, it would leave this oily like residue on the inside of the plastic cover over the back wheel. i ended up running the hose clear down to the bottom of the back shock mount, just letting it drip on the ground. So I'd also like to know why others have no issues.

 

[Bfromla]

:banghead:
Need some advice!!! I did a Canisterectomy on my 2011 RTS because I kept having an overwhelming fuel smell after every ride. Now I keep having a significant amount of fuel coming from the hose. I have read through several posts and I have tried several different routing options with the last going up under the dash with two loops and a filter (don’t really understand the filter part but a lot of people do it). Even put a wedge under where the vent hose attaches to the tank so the hose always goes up and stays above the tank for quite some time. Any suggestions would be great!:banghead:

Believe the filter is help make sure nothing climbs up tube:dontknow: just a guess have found many clogged openings on just about any & everything -mostly insect (wasp, spiders, even Caterpillar).

 

[Peter Aawen]

It sounds like you two are either over-filling the tank with (cold) gas outta the ground so that as it expands to match the above ground ambient temp, it simply over-flows outta that hose; OR your tank is somehow getting pressurised & blowing gas out of that over-flow - most likely a dud gas tank filler cap?! :dontknow:

That's effectively all it is, an over-flow.... the cannister is an emission control device designed to stop raw fuel vapour hitting the atmosphere by running the vapour into the activated charcoal inside the cannister while still allowing the tank to vent freely to atmospheric pressure; but if you EVER get liquid raw fuel into the cannister, the cannister immediately becomes a liquid vent block that stops the tank from equalising pressure as gas is sucked out/used, so your engine starts running rough! If you're lucky, you might find the cannister returns to functioning once the activated charcoal dries out, but if you're not, it turns into a solid brick of charcoal plugging the vent & your Spyder won't run too well trying to suck gas out of a non or only partially vented tank! :lecturef_smilie:

The 'Cannisterectomy' simply removes the potential plug & allows the tank to vent to atmosphere, as all vehicles used to do; except the re-routed plumbing/hose serves to divert any raw fuel (liquid OR gas) that might make it's way down the hose to drain out away from any hot spots &/or ignition sources - hence why routing the replacement hose forward is really just an invitation to a barbecue, with you &/or your Spyder as the main course!! :yikes: For most, that's not really going to ever be an issue, cos rarely will the gas you fill your tank with expand enough to over-flow the entire length of the vent (& also now - drain) hose, and so, most never have a problem - especially if they have kept the vent hose above the tank; they have a coil or two in the hose (still above the tank) to serve as an air/vapour lock that will still let the pressure equalise; and they haven't left anything easily blocked on the trailing end - the open end of that vent that will release any overflow onto the ground rather than anything hot &/or an ignition source! hyea:

BUT, if you've modded your filler neck to allow you to get even more fuel into the tank than the normally usable content (20 litres for 2013 & earlier Spyders; 24 litres for all the Spyders 2014 & on) then you're filling the NECESSARY expansion room that's meant to be left empty in the tank so that when the gas - coldish when it comes outta the ground & gets pumped via the bowser into your gas tank - starts to expand as it warms up to ambient temp, it still has somewhere to expand in to, or at least fills beyond the usual capacity of the tank to hold the expanded volume of gas..... in which case it'll either overflow into the cannister & start all the problems that cause people to want to do cannisterectomy's in the first place; or it'll fill the new vent hose you installed when you did the cannisterectomy & if it completely fills it, it'll vent raw fuel onto the ground, hopefully not splashing on any ignition source as it does so!

The moral of this little saga - don't overfill your gas tank! :lecturef_smilie: Cos any fill bringing the gas level anything much beyond the bottom ring of the filler neck is likely to expand enough to try to force it's way out that vent hose, the one that either goes to your cannister or to your re-routed vent hose.... and if either of those get raw fuel pushed into the gas tank end as it expands due to the variation in heat between the below the ground storage tank & the above the ground Spyder gas tank, then it is well on it's way to become a fireball just looking for somewhere to happen! :yikes: Or maybe, as mentioned in the first para, your gas tank filler cap is no longer working to let pressures equalise in that tank & needs replacing?? :dontknow:

 

[PMK]

Peter, regarding the fuel cap on a Spyder, it has been a long time since I checked, and since I do not run an oem Can Am fuel cap on account of various venting issues, are you certain the oem fuel cap accomplishes any venting in any way when installed and secured?

Been a while since I checked, but somehow I recall the oem fuel cap is simply a sealed “plug” with no means to vent in either direction, pressure or vacuum.

I do recall years ago seeing where a fuel tank on a Spyder collapsed on account of a blocked hose in the canister system. The vacuum from the pump was sufficient, without a secondary vent, to crush the fuel tank. And to make the canister fuel fumes system function, the fumes must be forced through the activated canister (yes fuel can deposit there also).

Not exactly the same, but on race motorcycles in order to prevent issues with carb bowl venting, we run what is known as “quad vents”. By design, at the source of liquid fuel, a “T” fitting is installed. Two hoses are attached per “T” fitting. One routes upward, the other downward. Doing this allows a vacuum break so to speak, and prevents the vent hose from becoming partially filled with fuel, thereby blocking the vent. When the vents on the carb become blocked, as the would on non Quad Vent setups, this would alter carb venting and create instant jetting concerns for that moment, until the blockage cleared.

Possibly this persons vent system for his Spyder fuel tank suffers a similar symptom when filled with fuel that sloshes about while riding, and when the fuel is heated as we know happens with Spyders and the heat retained under the bodywork. Agree not to overfill the fuel tank to lessen the likelihood of venting issues, and as many are aware, filling to the filler opening lip could be considered overfilling.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Peter, regarding the fuel cap on a Spyder, it has been a long time since I checked, and since I do not run an oem Can Am fuel cap on account of various venting issues, are you certain the oem fuel cap accomplishes any venting in any way when installed and secured?

Been a while since I checked, but somehow I recall the oem fuel cap is simply a sealed “plug” with no means to vent in either direction, pressure or vacuum.

.....

That may have been the case initially, but was certainly not so from 2013 on - IIRC, there was even a recall on the early 2013 (?) fuel caps cos they failed to let air in properly, so they were replaced by caps that did!. :thumbup:

 

[erinfire703]

It sounds like you two are either over-filling the tank with (cold) gas outta the ground so that as it expands to match the above ground ambient temp, it simply over-flows outta that hose; OR your tank is somehow getting pressurised & blowing gas out of that over-flow - most likely a dud gas tank filler cap?! :dontknow:

I’m wondering if it is the fuel cap? I noticed yesterday when I was cleaning up the raw fuel that came out the vent tube that it was gurgling a bit. It also does it after several miles of riding when any overfilling should be negated. Mine does have the newer style cap but it’s several years old. It would be worth a try. Heck I’ve even considered the way the end of my vent tube was cut causing a Venturi effect so I’ll willing to try anything. :don’t know:
Thanks for the advice!

 

[PMK]

That may have been the case initially, but was certainly not so from 2013 on - IIRC, there was even a recall on the early 2013 (?) fuel caps cos they failed to let air in properly, so they were replaced by caps that did!. :thumbup:

I do recall fuel caps being replaced on account of not unscrewing. Our 2014 RTS oem fuel cap has no venting at all. The area where a vent could be placed is molded solid. This is why I no longer run the oem fuel cap, opting for a vented cap instead.

Not sure why our 2014 RTS oem fuel cap deviates from your information.
Image is the oem 2014 RTS fuel cap with no venting.

 

[PMK]

I’m wondering if it is the fuel cap? I noticed yesterday when I was cleaning up the raw fuel that came out the vent tube that it was gurgling a bit. It also does it after several miles of riding when any overfilling should be negated. Mine does have the newer style cap but it’s several years old. It would be worth a try. Heck I’ve even considered the way the end of my vent tube was cut causing a Venturi effect ���� so I’ll willing to try anything. :don’t know:
Thanks for the advice!

If you decide on a non oem fuel cap somewhere I may have the part number I installed years ago.

 

[erinfire703]

Dang! I just ordered an OEM. If you have that part number I’d appreciate it, would make more sense for the cap to be vented.

 

[larryd]

If you decide on a non oem fuel cap somewhere I may have the part number I installed years ago.

I too would like that cap number...THANK YOU, larryd

 

[RangerRick]

I too would like that cap number...THANK YOU, larryd

Same here.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I do recall fuel caps being replaced on account of not unscrewing. Our 2014 RTS oem fuel cap has no venting at all. The area where a vent could be placed is molded solid. This is why I no longer run the oem fuel cap, opting for a vented cap instead.

Not sure why our 2014 RTS oem fuel cap deviates from your information.
Image is the oem 2014 RTS fuel cap with no venting.

That image you posted is for the 'new style' Vented Fuel Cap - I believe the old caps had black inners & certainly had no red o-ring. The white bit you can see in your pic may be molded solid, but between it & the red o-ring there's a spring loaded vent system that allows ambient air to come in. Since emission control mandates came in, all emission control vehicle gas caps have to be vented or you'll collapse the gas tank as gas gets sucked out during engine running (don't laugh, it's been done - to a Spyder too! :shocked: ) - the red o-ring bit seals the top of the filler, but the internals of the white bit will let air IN to equalise pressure inside the tank with ambient pressure as the gas gets used/sucked out; but they shouldn't let gas fumes OUT... it's an Internationally Mandated Emission Control requirement. That's what the gas cap recall in 2013 for ALL Spyders was about, the old style caps wouldn't seal properly & gas fumes (or liquid!) leaking out posed a fire hazard! :shocked: With the new style caps, liquids &/or gas shouldn't come out of the tank past the gas cap once it's clicked down tight, so any excess expansion or overflow gets forced out via the vent & canister system, if it's still there! And that's why over-filling the tank isn't a good idea - too much raw liquid gas will destroy the canister, & then either let you vent raw fuel to air (the emission mobs hate that! ) or it'll block it like cementing over the vent, and that causes running issues & possibly even other tank problems! :sour: If your canister is no longer there, your replacement hose routing & the hose outlet needs to be placed to make sure it can't dump gas fumes &/or liquid fuel onto any ignition source, or your seat might get pretty hot pretty quickly! :yikes:

Back when they did that 2013 recall, some of the initial 'recall issue' gas caps had dodgy internals that let you close them & click the mechanism a few times more to ensure it's tight as they should, but in the dodgy caps, that mechanism failed after about a year; so they were replaced under warranty, I believe as a job lot. And now, all the OEM gas caps in use should be the 'new style' Vented fuel caps with a white inner & a red o-ring. :thumbup:

Ps: the 'Gas cap recall' was for all Spyders, and an entirely separate issue to the 'Canister Vent Hose Relocation' recall (that was for some of the earlier machines, but No RT's) or the 'dodgy canister issue/fuel smell/overflow' thing that's seen soo many of us do a canisterectomy!

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?47637-New-Fuel-Caps

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?47591-Received-recall-today-from-BRP

 

[PMK]

That image you posted is for the 'new style' Vented Fuel Cap - I believe the old caps had black inners & certainly had no red o-ring. The white bit you can see in your pic may be molded solid, but between it & the red o-ring there's a spring loaded vent system that allows ambient air to come in. Since emission control mandates came in, all emission control vehicle gas caps have to be vented or you'll collapse the gas tank as gas gets sucked out during engine running (don't laugh, it's been done - to a Spyder too! :shocked: ) - the red o-ring bit seals the top of the filler, but the internals of the white bit will let air IN to equalise pressure inside the tank with ambient pressure as the gas gets used/sucked out; but they shouldn't let gas fumes OUT... it's an Internationally Mandated Emission Control requirement. That's what the gas cap recall in 2013 for ALL Spyders was about, the old style caps wouldn't seal properly & gas fumes (or liquid!) leaking out posed a fire hazard! :shocked: With the new style caps, liquids &/or gas shouldn't come out of the tank past the gas cap once it's clicked down tight, so any excess expansion or overflow gets forced out via the vent & canister system, if it's still there! And that's why over-filling the tank isn't a good idea - too much raw liquid gas will destroy the canister, & then either let you vent raw fuel to air (the emission mobs hate that! ) or it'll block it like cementing over the vent, and that causes running issues & possibly even other tank problems! :sour: If your canister is no longer there, your replacement hose routing & the hose outlet needs to be placed to make sure it can't dump gas fumes &/or liquid fuel onto any ignition source, or your seat might get pretty hot pretty quickly! :yikes:

Back when they did that 2013 recall, some of the initial 'recall issue' gas caps had dodgy internals that let you close them & click the mechanism a few times more to ensure it's tight as they should, but in the dodgy caps, that mechanism failed after about a year; so they were replaced under warranty, I believe as a job lot. And now, all the OEM gas caps in use should be the 'new style' Vented fuel caps with a white inner & a red o-ring. :thumbup:

Ps: the 'Gas cap recall' was for all Spyders, and an entirely separate issue to the 'Canister Vent Hose Relocation' recall (that was for some of the earlier machines, but No RT's) or the 'dodgy canister issue/fuel smell/overflow' thing that's seen soo many of us do a canisterectomy!

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?47637-New-Fuel-Caps

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?47591-Received-recall-today-from-BRP

Peter, while portions of your post are accurate, other portions are not accurate and incorrect. Specifically, these new style caps provide no vent system at all. Inspection of the fuel cap in the photo I posted, as before, when vacuum is applied to the caps white end, no airflow is obtained. Additionally, I removed the red sealing ring, expecting to find a vent that you mentioned. The entire white end, with threads, has no vent hole from its upper edge to the lower edge. As the rubber ring is installed, the flange which seals the rubber ring, to the caps inner edge is completely sealed with no vents present.

I welcome you to inspect the new style cap on your own Spyder to show the differences.

The fuel tank vent system utilizes the hoses and canister to allow the fuel to vent inward as fuel is consumed and outward as pressure increases. The canister by design is an EVAP style designed to control fumes / emissions.

As I mentioned, years ago, I replaced this oem fuel cap with a cap of similar dimensions, but allows inward venting when the cap is fully closed. This oem cap has no such feature or capability.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

:banghead:
Need some advice!!! I did a Canisterectomy on my 2011 RTS because I kept having an overwhelming fuel smell after every ride. Now I keep having a significant amount of fuel coming from the hose. I have read through several posts and I have tried several different routing options with the last going up under the dash with two loops and a filter (don’t really understand the filter part but a lot of people do it). Even put a wedge under where the vent hose attaches to the tank so the hose always goes up and stays above the tank for quite some time. Any suggestions would be great!:banghead:

Well, I've got a little different idea, of course. For 8 years, I've had a canisterectomy, an unvented gas cap from Stant that I bought myself, and I routinely pack the tank chock full of fuel and never had this problem. Remember, that the vent for the tank is above the gas filler opening. You can't get gas out the vent without overflowing the filler first.

But, what does happen, is that the gas in the tank heats up just like everything else does that's underneath the Tupperware. It evaporates and the vapors head out of the vent and into your vent line. It's not only just air. When you pull into the garage, the warm vapors coming out of the tank, meet the relatively cool air in your garage, and they begin to condense back into a liquid. I've watched it. That was exactly one of the processes that would fill up the canister over time. Most of us only see some drops of liquid hanging from the vent hose and only get a small wet spot on the floor, as the condensed liquid drains out of the hose. That's all normal.

Your Spyder sitting there pissing like a race horse is not normal, nor do I think it's a gas cap or overfilling problem. Your tank can breath perfectly fine using the vent line, as long as it's not restricted. It doesn't require a vented cap, as my machine demonstrates.

I think that your observation of the gurgling sound is key. If this condensation cannot gravity drain out of the hose, either out the end, or back to the tank, it will accumulate and form a loop seal. And coincidentally, your write up mentions that you have some loops in your hose. Your tank won't be able to breath in and out of the vent line freely, because it has to push or pull through the accumulated liquid. You're hearing the gurgling. And when the pressure builds up, it will just puke out the excess.

Keep in mind that the vent at the top of the tank is not just an open hole, but rather has a roll-over valve there. No, I've never taken one apart, but I'm not sure that I would trust it to allow a gravity drain of liquid back into the tank.

So, as a test, why don't you just re-route your drain line, to come straight off the top of the tank and go straight down to the bottom of the frame like it did originally. Let the whole thing vent and for any condensate to gravity drain straight down the hose. No bends, kinks, or loops. See if your problem goes away or at least changes. If you then, only get a little wet spot on the floor, that's normal. It's science.

 

[Bfromla]

Maybe alternate solution?:dontknow: PermaCap #191827319405, or Stant # 310631270071

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Well, I've got a little different idea, of course. For 8 years, I've had a canisterectomy, an unvented gas cap from Stant that I bought myself, and I routinely pack the tank chock full of fuel and never had this problem. Remember, that the vent for the tank is above the gas filler opening. You can't get gas out the vent without overflowing the filler first.

But, what does happen, is that the gas in the tank heats up just like everything else does that's underneath the Tupperware. It evaporates and the vapors head out of the vent and into your vent line. It's not only just air. When you pull into the garage, the warm vapors coming out of the tank, meet the relatively cool air in your garage, and they begin to condense back into a liquid. I've watched it. That was exactly one of the processes that would fill up the canister over time. Most of us only see some drops of liquid hanging from the vent hose and only get a small wet spot on the floor, as the condensed liquid drains out of the hose. That's all normal.

Your Spyder sitting there pissing like a race horse is not normal, nor do I think it's a gas cap or overfilling problem. Your tank can breath perfectly fine using the vent line, as long as it's not restricted. It doesn't require a vented cap, as my machine demonstrates.

I think that your observation of the gurgling sound is key. If this condensation cannot gravity drain out of the hose, either out the end, or back to the tank, it will accumulate and form a loop seal. And coincidentally, your write up mentions that you have some loops in your hose. Your tank won't be able to breath in and out of the vent line freely, because it has to push or pull through the accumulated liquid. You're hearing the gurgling. And when the pressure builds up, it will just puke out the excess.

Keep in mind that the vent at the top of the tank is not just an open hole, but rather has a roll-over valve there. No, I've never taken one apart, but I'm not sure that I would trust it to allow a gravity drain of liquid back into the tank.

So, as a test, why don't you just re-route your drain line, to come straight off the top of the tank and go straight down to the bottom of the frame like it did originally. Let the whole thing vent and for any condensate to gravity drain straight down the hose. No bends, kinks, or loops. See if your problem goes away or at least changes. If you then, only get a little wet spot on the floor, that's normal. It's science.

:agree: ..... I did mine differently , I left the cannister in...... I have pics in an Album of how I did mine.... good luck ... Mike :thumbup: