Bit of a shock !!

[stant52]

:yikes: Wife and I went out for a ride yesterday . I approached an intersection a little fast to make a left turn . Standard lighted traffic intersection.
I was making a left turn ,a little fast and half way thru the turn, the left wheel came up in the air about 8" !! :yikes::yikes: Good thing the wife had a good grip on rails !
I've been riding the Spyder for 1 1/2 years never had anything similar happen. Surprised me ! The only thing different was earlier this week I lightened the pre-load on the front shocks. They had been turned up to the stiffest setting and I thought turning down 2 spots made a softer ride but I did notice a little more sway.
Just looking for other riders thoughts . maybe the BajaRon sway bar is a good idea ?
2010 Spyder Rt
tHANKS

 

[BajaRon]

With the sway bar upgrade, you can run a softer front shock pre-load to get your nice ride and still solve your lean and tire lifting issue. I am sorry to say that the 2010 RT came with the worst shock set of any Spyder ever made. A front shock upgrade would also give a great deal of improvement on that particular Spyder. If you'd like some recommendations, PM or email me at [email protected].

The 2010 RT can be a great handling ride with a few upgrades.

 

[Rednaxs60]

:yikes: Wife and I went out for a ride yesterday . I approached an intersection a little fast to make a left turn . Standard lighted traffic intersection.
I was making a left turn ,a little fast and half way thru the turn, the left wheel came up in the air about 8" !! :yikes::yikes: Good thing the wife had a good grip on rails !
I've been riding the Spyder for 1 1/2 years never had anything similar happen. Surprised me ! The only thing different was earlier this week I lightened the pre-load on the front shocks. They had been turned up to the stiffest setting and I thought turning down 2 spots made a softer ride but I did notice a little more sway.
Just looking for other riders thoughts . maybe the BajaRon sway bar is a good idea ?
2010 Spyder Rt
tHANKS

Had to do some thinking on this one. Suspension is an interesting subject. I have been looking for information on setting up a Spyder suspension because I have a set of M2 shocks, front/rear, coming for my '14 RT LE.

Shocks can have preload, rebound and compression settings. Preload is the simplest to understand, adjust ride height and sag. Preload does not change the shock spring rate. Preload should be set such that the primary ride height based on solo/two up percentages, is kept to a minimum - as close to no preload as possible. Rebound is how fast/slow the shock returns to it's resting/riding condition, compression similar - how fast/slow the shock compresses when hitting a bump.

To get a better ride quality, you actually need to have a shock with preload, rebound/compression settings, preferably preload and rebound, and the appropriate spring rate. You can get the all singing, all dancing ones but for recreational riding not required - preload and rebound is good. Shock spring rate should be for the primary riding scenario solo/two up.

If you have to have a lot of preload to achieve the desired ride height, shock spring rate is too soft, conversely, if the ride is too harsh with no preload, too stiff a spring rate. Without a rebound setting, how the shock returns to the ride height position is a matter of internal shock design. This may sound like the spring rate changes depending on the preload adjustment, but it does not.

I have just installed a new set of Hagon shocks on my '85 Honda Goldwing Limited Edition that has preload and rebound adjustments. The rebound adjuster is a combined rebound/compression adjustment of 70/30.

You lightened the preload, reducing the ride height, probably not that much, but enough to change how the Spyder reacted in the corner. The taller the Spyder front end the more cornering force required to get the side opposite to the corner, left turn - right side/right turn - left side, down far enough to get the inside wheel off the ground. The less taller the ride height, the less the cornering force required to get the inside wheel off the ground.

What happened to you in a corner could also indicate that the shock may be past the best before date - shocks do wear out without any external visible indication.

Put the preload back to where it was. Measure the distance of the front of the Spyder from the ground when you do this. I've read that it should be in the 4-5 inch range. Anytime you do a preload adjustment, check the front height, same with the rear.

Bajaron's sway bar upgrade is a good start - does reduce sway in the corner, but if you are going to keep the Spyder, consider a shock upgrade as well. The OEM shocks that are on your Spyder are 11 years old, were designed to meet the requirements of a wide range of riders, and additional weight, but not to last forever. We tend to disregard this aspect when owning a vehicle because we grow with the suspension degradation, and think all is well.

Hope this helps. Good luck

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Had to do some thinking on this one. Suspension is an interesting subject. I have been looking for information on setting up a Spyder suspension because I have a set of M2 shocks, front/rear, coming for my '14 RT LE.

Shocks can have preload, rebound and compression settings. Preload is the simplest to understand, adjust ride height and sag. Preload does not change the shock spring rate. Preload should be set such that the primary ride height based on solo/two up percentages, is kept to a minimum - as close to no preload as possible. Rebound is how fast/slow the shock returns to it's resting/riding condition, compression similar - how fast/slow the shock compresses when hitting a bump.

To get a better ride quality, you actually need to have a shock with preload, rebound/compression settings, preferably preload and rebound, and the appropriate spring rate. You can get the all singing, all dancing ones but for recreational riding not required - preload and rebound is good. Shock spring rate should be for the primary riding scenario solo/two up.

If you have to have a lot of preload to achieve the desired ride height, shock spring rate is too soft, conversely, if the ride is too harsh with no preload, too stiff a spring rate. Without a rebound setting, how the shock returns to the ride height position is a matter of internal shock design. This may sound like the spring rate changes depending on the preload adjustment, but it does not.

I have just installed a new set of Hagon shocks on my '85 Honda Goldwing Limited Edition that has preload and rebound adjustments. The rebound adjuster is a combined rebound/compression adjustment of 70/30.

You lightened the preload, reducing the ride height, probably not that much, but enough to change how the Spyder reacted in the corner. The taller the Spyder front end the more cornering force required to get the side opposite to the corner, left turn - right side/right turn - left side, down far enough to get the inside wheel off the ground. The less taller the ride height, the less the cornering force required to get the inside wheel off the ground.

What happened to you in a corner could also indicate that the shock may be past the best before date - shocks do wear out without any external visible indication.

Put the preload back to where it was. Measure the distance of the front of the Spyder from the ground when you do this. I've read that it should be in the 4-5 inch range. Anytime you do a preload adjustment, check the front height, same with the rear.

Bajaron's sway bar upgrade is a good start - does reduce sway in the corner, but if you are going to keep the Spyder, consider a shock upgrade as well. The OEM shocks that are on your Spyder are 11 years old, were designed to meet the requirements of a wide range of riders, and additional weight, but not to last forever. We tend to disregard this aspect when owning a vehicle because we grow with the suspension degradation, and think all is well.

Hope this helps. Good luck

Maybe something to consider .... Pre-load will compress the Spring involved .... a compressed Spring has LESS travel ( it's now smaller ) .... if it's completely compressed ... there is NO spring travel ( essentially a HD hardtail ). So I don't agree with your hypothesis...... I wanted " better performing shocks ( on an 08 GS, an 09 RSS and a 14 RT ) without adding any Harshness. ... I designed brackets ( bolt-on for the early and later frames ) that would lessen the angle of the shock ( more up-right ) .... On the GS and RSS I could now leave the Pre-load at a minimum setting and still attain better performance with a nice ride .... the 14 RT had no pre-load ability, but the brackets worked as intended ..... good luck .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[UtahPete]

Shocks can have preload, rebound and compression settings. Preload is the simplest to understand, adjust ride height and sag. Preload does not change the shock spring rate. Preload should be set such that the primary ride height based on solo/two up percentages, is kept to a minimum - as close to no preload as possible. Rebound is how fast/slow the shock returns to it's resting/riding condition, compression similar - how fast/slow the shock compresses when hitting a bump.

Bajaron's sway bar upgrade is a good start - does reduce sway in the corner, but if you are going to keep the Spyder, consider a shock upgrade as well. The OEM shocks that are on your Spyder are 11 years old, were designed to meet the requirements of a wide range of riders, and additional weight, but not to last forever. We tend to disregard this aspect when owning a vehicle because we grow with the suspension degradation, and think all is well.

Hope this helps. Good luck

Good points. We do tend to overlook the critical part springs and shocks play in the overall equation, and take them for granted sometimes.

 

[PMK]

Had to do some thinking on this one. Suspension is an interesting subject. I have been looking for information on setting up a Spyder suspension because I have a set of M2 shocks, front/rear, coming for my '14 RT LE.

Shocks can have preload, rebound and compression settings. Preload is the simplest to understand, adjust ride height and sag. Preload does not change the shock spring rate. Preload should be set such that the primary ride height based on solo/two up percentages, is kept to a minimum - as close to no preload as possible. Rebound is how fast/slow the shock returns to it's resting/riding condition, compression similar - how fast/slow the shock compresses when hitting a bump.

To get a better ride quality, you actually need to have a shock with preload, rebound/compression settings, preferably preload and rebound, and the appropriate spring rate. You can get the all singing, all dancing ones but for recreational riding not required - preload and rebound is good. Shock spring rate should be for the primary riding scenario solo/two up.

If you have to have a lot of preload to achieve the desired ride height, shock spring rate is too soft, conversely, if the ride is too harsh with no preload, too stiff a spring rate. Without a rebound setting, how the shock returns to the ride height position is a matter of internal shock design. This may sound like the spring rate changes depending on the preload adjustment, but it does not.

I have just installed a new set of Hagon shocks on my '85 Honda Goldwing Limited Edition that has preload and rebound adjustments. The rebound adjuster is a combined rebound/compression adjustment of 70/30.

You lightened the preload, reducing the ride height, probably not that much, but enough to change how the Spyder reacted in the corner. The taller the Spyder front end the more cornering force required to get the side opposite to the corner, left turn - right side/right turn - left side, down far enough to get the inside wheel off the ground. The less taller the ride height, the less the cornering force required to get the inside wheel off the ground.

What happened to you in a corner could also indicate that the shock may be past the best before date - shocks do wear out without any external visible indication.

Put the preload back to where it was. Measure the distance of the front of the Spyder from the ground when you do this. I've read that it should be in the 4-5 inch range. Anytime you do a preload adjustment, check the front height, same with the rear.

Bajaron's sway bar upgrade is a good start - does reduce sway in the corner, but if you are going to keep the Spyder, consider a shock upgrade as well. The OEM shocks that are on your Spyder are 11 years old, were designed to meet the requirements of a wide range of riders, and additional weight, but not to last forever. We tend to disregard this aspect when owning a vehicle because we grow with the suspension degradation, and think all is well.

Hope this helps. Good luck

Regarding spring preload, you have posted incomplete information.
A spring at rest, on the bench has zero preload and zero force stored. An installed spring, with say 10mm preload has a stored energy of 10mm. If we increase the preload to 20mm, the stored energy is increased.

The springs end force increases with preload. The rate will not change, but initial and end force increase with preload.

Regarding clickers, externally adjustable rebound and compression has its place. However, in regards to Spyders, the need is minimal if not nil. When the internal damping is correctly valved, the need for external adjusters goes away. In many cases, external adjusters simply offer an owner the ability to incorrectly setup the damping, creating a worse handling machine.

The Spyder has minimal wheel travel, about 4 1/2”.
This places a huge emphasis on the suspension company to correctly internally valve the shock. Reason being is that a rebound adjuster is a Low Speed Damping adjuster. It does not alter HSR which is also important.
Depending upon the design of a compression adjuster, some are merely LSC capable only, while others may offer non adjustable external HSC adjustment.

Basically, in general, the longer the travel, the more important to have external adjusters.

 

[UtahPete]

A spring at rest, on the bench has zero preload and zero force stored. An installed spring, with say 10mm preload has a stored energy of 10mm. If we increase the preload to 20mm, the stored energy is increased.

Externally adjustable rebound and compression has its place. However, in regards to Spyders, the need is minimal if not nil. When the internal damping is correctly valved, the need for external adjusters goes away. In many cases, external adjusters simply offer an owner the ability to incorrectly setup the damping, creating a worse handling machine.

The Spyder has minimal wheel travel, about 4 1/2”. This places a huge emphasis on the suspension company to correctly internally valve the shock. Basically, in general, the longer the travel, the more important to have external adjusters.

Excellent discussion. Very helpful in understanding the dynamic forces at play and the respective roles suspension components play in 'getting it right'.

 

[bluewoo]

(my case)I found it's the passenger not paying attention and there weight shifts from the turn or some throttle input, usually speed would kick the nannies just before the wheel can come up.
This is easy to do form a stop, just turn the wheels a little and blip the throttle - now add a passenger.
I have my wife trained now to lean with me into tighter turns-you have to!
I've noticed if the wheels are turned very sharp from a stop my throttle impute is cut back by the nannies because this is the point where you can do a wheelie!! (one)
* I have no issues following the two wheelers into turns now since were both trained to lean and enjoying the 2021 RTL*
Steer: Turn the handlebar to steer
the vehicle in the direction of the
turn. This vehicle is not like a motorcycle, so it does not countersteer,
and the vehicle does not lean. Remember, you will experience the
lateral force generated by turning,
so you may need to shift your body
weight to the inside of the turn to
keep a comfortable posture on the
vehicle. You will need to exert more
force to turn the handlebar of your
vehicle than is needed to turn a motorcycle.

 

[old Timer]

Exactly like riding an ATV.

 

[Eckhard]

It does not alter HSR which is also important.
Depending upon the design of a compression adjuster, some are merely LSC capable only, while others may offer non adjustable external HSC adjustment.

Please define HSR and LSC.

Thanks.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Please define HSR and LSC.

Thanks.

HSR = High Speed Rebound;
HSC = High Speed Compression (or Higher School Certificate in Oz! ); and
LSC = Low Speed Compression

and (apart from the Ozzie School reference ) all are referring to the rebound & compression rates of your springs & shocks. :thumbup:

 

[PMK]

Excellent discussion. Very helpful in understanding the dynamic forces at play and the respective role suspension components play in 'getting it right'.

Guess I am a suspension geek having been working on performance suspension since 1976

 

[PMK]

Please define HSR and LSC.

Thanks.

HSC=High Speed Compression
HSR=High Speed Rebound.

Not high vehicle speed, rather high shaft velocity on the shock.

 

[safecracker]

One thing I noticed in the first post was, this was a 2010 Spyder. They had really soft springs on the front. On the 2011 and 2012 model years the front shocks were a little better. Since I ride double most of the time my front shocks are adjusted to the hardest setting. That is what I would adjust your shocks back up to.

 

[stant52]

Had to do some thinking on this one. Suspension is an interesting subject. I have been looking for information on setting up a Spyder suspension because I have a set of M2 shocks, front/rear, coming for my '14 RT LE.

Shocks can have preload, rebound and compression settings. Preload is the simplest to understand, adjust ride height and sag. Preload does not change the shock spring rate. Preload should be set such that the primary ride height based on solo/two up percentages, is kept to a minimum - as close to no preload as possible. Rebound is how fast/slow the shock returns to it's resting/riding condition, compression similar - how fast/slow the shock compresses when hitting a bump.

To get a better ride quality, you actually need to have a shock with preload, rebound/compression settings, preferably preload and rebound, and the appropriate spring rate. You can get the all singing, all dancing ones but for recreational riding not required - preload and rebound is good. Shock spring rate should be for the primary riding scenario solo/two up.

If you have to have a lot of preload to achieve the desired ride height, shock spring rate is too soft, conversely, if the ride is too harsh with no preload, too stiff a spring rate. Without a rebound setting, how the shock returns to the ride height position is a matter of internal shock design. This may sound like the spring rate changes depending on the preload adjustment, but it does not.

I have just installed a new set of Hagon shocks on my '85 Honda Goldwing Limited Edition that has preload and rebound adjustments. The rebound adjuster is a combined rebound/compression adjustment of 70/30.

You lightened the preload, reducing the ride height, probably not that much, but enough to change how the Spyder reacted in the corner. The taller the Spyder front end the more cornering force required to get the side opposite to the corner, left turn - right side/right turn - left side, down far enough to get the inside wheel off the ground. The less taller the ride height, the less the cornering force required to get the inside wheel off the ground.

What happened to you in a corner could also indicate that the shock may be past the best before date - shocks do wear out without any external visible indication.

Put the preload back to where it was. Measure the distance of the front of the Spyder from the ground when you do this. I've read that it should be in the 4-5 inch range. Anytime you do a preload adjustment, check the front height, same with the rear.

Bajaron's sway bar upgrade is a good start - does reduce sway in the corner, but if you are going to keep the Spyder, consider a shock upgrade as well. The OEM shocks that are on your Spyder are 11 years old, were designed to meet the requirements of a wide range of riders, and additional weight, but not to last forever. We tend to disregard this aspect when owning a vehicle because we grow with the suspension degradation, and think all is well.

Hope this helps. Good luck

It may be a 2010 Spyder, 11 years old BUT it only has 16,000 miles on it . I would hope the shocks are not Worn out that soon . I'll increase the pre-load and look into BajaRon's sway bar , Thanks everyone

 

[Peter Aawen]

.....
I was making a left turn ,a little fast and half way thru the turn, the left wheel came up in the air about 8" !! :yikes::yikes: Good thing the wife had a good grip on rails!
....

That's not really anything to worry about - it's just 'The Spyder Salute', or our version of a wheelie (cos they aren't really possible on a Spyder! :shocked: ) and with a little practice, you can learn to do it pretty much at will & for some (shortish) distance, even while going straight! hyea: If it gets to be too worrying, the Nanny steps in & makes sure you have everything back under control - hence the 'shortish' comment earlier - she really won't let you get away with that sort of shenanigans for too long! :lecturef_smilie:

Still, like most Spyder Ryders, it's reasonable to not want that to occur uninvited &/or on every corner, but it is basically due to excessive body roll & the limited suspension travel our Spyders have, so whatever you do to limit that body roll the better! Without spending too much money, putting your shock adjusters back to where they were is one way to minimise that; fitting a Sway Bar Upgrade is another relatively cheap option; but anything a/mkt much beyond those two starts getting expensive pretty quickly! :shocked:

However, that happening does sorta suggest that your OE Shocks are getting a bit tired, and given that your Spyder RT is a 2010 model with its reputation for having 'poor shocks', if you don't want to fork out quite so many $$ for expensive a/mkt shocks, you could try to source a set of 'take-off' shocks from a 2014-on Spyder RT, possibly even a set of the 'upgrade' Fox shocks - the 2011-13 RT OE shocks & springs were an upgrade over the 2010 RT shocks, so they'd probably help a little; but the 2014-19 RT shocks were a further upgrade, and who knows, you might be able to get some relatively cheaply that are good enough to work for you! And if after trying them, you decide that you really DO want to go further down that 'upgrade the shocks' track, you won't be out too much in the way of hard earned $$ - but whatever you do, I'd still suggest that you do the Sway Bar Upgrade before getting too far down the 'upgrade' rabbit hole! :thumbup:

Over to you! :cheers:

 

[Steve W.]

Maybe something to consider .... Pre-load will compress the Spring involved .... a compressed Spring has LESS travel ( it's now smaller ) .... if it's completely compressed ... there is NO spring travel ( essentially a HD hardtail ).

Mike, I'm going to have to disagree with several points there.

Yes, increasing pre-load MIGHT compress the spring, but only if the shock is already fully-extended.

Yes, a compressed spring has less travel, but that is because of the weight of the load (people) applied, not the amount of the pre-load of the spring.

Look at it this way: consider a load that will compress the spring about two inches from fully-extended. WHILE IT IS STILL COMPRESSED, turn your pre-load adjuster to extend the bottom of the shock one inch. Your spring is still compressed two inches, but the pre-load has restored one inch of RIDE HEIGHT, not shock travel.

Bottom line: adjusting pre-load only restores ride height, it does not affect spring rate.

.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Mike, I'm going to have to disagree with several points there.

Yes, increasing pre-load MIGHT compress the spring, but only if the shock is already fully-extended.

Yes, a compressed spring has less travel, but that is because of the weight of the load (people) applied, not the amount of the pre-load of the spring.

Look at it this way: consider a load that will compress the spring about two inches from fully-extended. WHILE IT IS STILL COMPRESSED, turn your pre-load adjuster to extend the bottom of the shock one inch. Your spring is still compressed two inches, but the pre-load has restored one inch of RIDE HEIGHT, not shock travel.

Bottom line: adjusting pre-load only restores ride height, it does not affect spring rate.

.

Well Steve I happen to have an un-mounted 2012 RT shock ... the one that was still pre-load adjustable. ( newer ones arn't ) .... the main body of the shock is one piece ( 38.4mm in dia. ) there are two tabs welded on the lower part ... the Pre-load can be adjusted by rotating the collar at the bottom of the spring ... the piston can only extend till it hits the internal stop ... the upper cap is fixed at the top because the spring is Always under pressure ( by design ) .... There is NO " might " about the pre-load compressing the spring - it is a fact. The shock piston and the Spring both compress equally and simultaneously ... either due to static load or from the terrain you are moving over ... I stand by my earlier statements that the more you compress that Spring on the shock body ( ie pre-load ) the less travel it has because there is less distance between the coils. ... the tighter the spring gets the harsher the ride .... If you think it works in a different manner, please explain ..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[PMK]

Well Steve I happen to have an un-mounted 2012 RT shock ... the one that was still pre-load adjustable. ( newer ones arn't ) .... the main body of the shock is one piece ( 38.4mm in dia. ) there are two tabs welded on the lower part ... the Pre-load can be adjusted by rotating the collar at the bottom of the spring ... the piston can only extend till it hits the internal stop ... the upper cap is fixed at the top because the spring is Always under pressure ( by design ) .... There is NO " might " about the pre-load compressing the spring - it is a fact. The shock piston and the Spring both compress equally and simultaneously ... either due to static load or from the terrain you are moving over ... I stand by my earlier statements that the more you compress that Spring on the shock body ( ie pre-load ) the less travel it has because there is less distance between the coils. ... the tighter the spring gets the harsher the ride .... If you think it works in a different manner, please explain ..... Mike :thumbup:

This is correct.

Will add, unless improperly designed or an incorrect spring is installed, coil binding should never occur. Actually, should never be allowed to occur. The fully compressed limit should always be either bottoming cushion on the shock shaft, or as in some cars and trucks, a bottoming pad the suspension arm or rear end housing contacts at full bottoming.

 

[PMK]

For folks interested in learning / understanding more about performance suspension, this is a good book on the topic.

https://racetech.com/page/title/Suspension Bible