ATTN: ST OWNERS!

[pro10is]

:agree:100%. After applying all said useless and misguided heat wraps/shielding, I've eliminated most riding discomfort associated with heat as well as too hot to touch panels and boiling gas. A useless and misguided endeavor indeed. The added performance and gas mileage is just the icing

Well then you're a genius because even BRP has not managed to do this. You've solved the heat issues and increased performance and gas mileage to boot. What a guy!

If you're so certain you've solved the problem that has stumped everyone else, have it patented and sell us and BRP your solution. We'll all be in your debt.

 

[pro10is]

It is the radiating, escaping heat that is causing many of the difficulties. If it can be reduced, the difficulties may well be reduced to a tolerable level. If it can be diverted, same result. It doesn't matter what the source temperature is, just how much is radiated to the rider and the Spyder components. I agree that this is a serious matter, and should be reporte to the NHTSA is master cylinder damage occurs or the brake fluid becomes deteriorated. The same may appl y for the boiling fuel and untouchable gas caps. Meanwhile, if reflectors, heat shields, fans, insulation, or any combination of these things can help, I see no reason not to implement them if an owner wishes to do so. Arguing points of view is serving no purpose. JMHO

I have failed to make even you understand the distinct and vital difference between thermal radiation and convection, and that convection not radiation is the real culprit and danger here and cannot be so easily stopped. Didn't anyone here take high school physics? Does anyone understand what convection is and how it works? The brake reservoir is sitting in a convection oven not a microwave or infrared oven. All that wrap and those shiny, thin shields will never stop or divert convection or conduction. Just because something looks as if it should work does not mean it will work. If I can't make someone as intelligent as you understand and back me up on this when lives may be at stake, I may as well give up. :banghead: Good Lord. By all means carry on with your "solutions" folks, you all seem to know more than me. If anyone dies, so be it.

I can only imagine several hundred years ago how difficult it must have been to try to make even intelligent people understand the world was round when everyone could very well see and knew damn well it was most certainly flat.

Ride safely everyone and the best of luck to you.

 

[JKMSPYDER]

Ok, I have a question for our thermodynamics expert. Why is it that when I use a reflective windshield thingy in my front windshield on a hot summer day, the interior is much cooler at the end of the afternoon than if I don't use it. Theory says that if I block out some of the radiant heat, then I'm still going to have the same conductive and convective heat. Can any of you SLers back me up on this if you use a windshield reflective shield on a hot day? Here's my theory. If I can block some of the radiant heat, then a conductive and convective heat will be blocked proportionally. I have had a CD melt on my dash on a hot summer day without a shield, but never when using the shield. I'm not a PhD, nor have a genius IQ, but the windshield reflector works and I have cut down tremendously the heat on my left leg by using exhaust wrap and reflective tape. Hopefully what I have done to block radiant heat from the MC cap will work. Again, if I can keep the heat on the MC cap below the melting point by shielding the cap, isn't that success? I don't mean to question our expert's knowledge, but I can only tell you my real world experience.

 

[Jeriatric]

Convective and Radiant Heat Transfer Equations



http://blowers.chee.arizona.edu/cooking/heat/convection.html


http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/transfer.html

 

[Netminder]

I really didn't want to comment on this post as I am definitely not an engineer!But I would have to agree with both sides of this heat control debate. If people are seeing real success in cutting down the heat and preventing melting plastic, :clap::clap:! But that being said, this is definitely a major issue that BRP has to address ASAP (which I am sure/hope they are)as it has the potential for devastating result. I also see by looking at pics that the shield cannot do anything but help, when you have a plastic cap that close to a exhaust,(pretty direct heat!)it is not good. I have a friend who is a mechanic and drives a Harley and when I told him of this issue, he said his Harley has a heat shied in front of the master cylinder for that reason, and to keep the fluid from heating up,so if Harley has it, :dontknow:they have been in the business a long time? Understanding that they are not wrapped in as much Tupperware!:dontknow:

 

[Jeriatric]

Net, you're correct. The shield will help. Up to a point, because it will block radiant heat. However, once the radiant heat level falls below the tempratures of convective heat. The shield is no longer serving a purpose.

Take you Harley friends heat shield. It sets generally in open air. So, it with the aid of ambient air circulation does what it is designed to do. Protect the master cylinder from radiant heat.

That's not what happens under the tupperware of a spyder. A heat shield will help until convective heat exceeds the shields reflective ability. Convective heat is heat that is trapped inside the tupperware and rolls from the top of the tupperware to the bottom. It is constantly being reheated and cycling as long as the spyder is running. The higher the tempratures you're running the spyder in the higher the tempratures within the tupperware will be. As well, the longer you run the spyder(to a point) the higher the convective heat will build in intensity.

And, you're right again. Someone did not conduct real world testing before this product was released to the public, or this would not be happening.

 

[Netminder]

Jerbear, yes I do understand what you stated above?:thumbup: Hence the Tupperware comment at the end. I think the only real solution for the Spyder heat issues, is chroming up some of the motor parts and getting rid of some of the Tupperware!hyea: What about some of the newer BMW.s or such that seem to have lots of Tupperware? How are they addressing these issues? To much plastic! Bet you Dave and Teddy had no heat issues when they rode Ted's sled naked for a while!:thumbup:

 

[quickster47]

So, has anyone filed a complaint with the NHTSA regarding heat problems with the ST?

I mean folks keep saying it needs to be done but has anyone actually done it?

Carl

 

[JKMSPYDER]

HEAT

Yes I have filed a complaint. They assigned me a case number and I haven't heard from them since. Regarding the MC cap issue, many of us that are shielding the cap are also discarding the bottom plastic panels to help the heat escape. But I realize this won't help much if I am idling at a stop light on a hot day as heat inside the tupperware rises.

 

[MidLifeCrisis]

Well then you're a genius because even BRP has not managed to do this. You've solved the heat issues and increased performance and gas mileage to boot. What a guy!

If you're so certain you've solved the problem that has stumped everyone else, have it patented and sell us and BRP your solution. We'll all be in your debt.

That's because sometimes you have to take what science tells you and apply some reason, logic and testing to see what the final outcome is. Don't know what to tell you. You keep insisting I've accomplished nothing, because science says so and I keep saying I have, because my wife doesn't burn her legs and behind, since the change, so who are you going to believe.

The one thing the scientific facts you often quote don't take into account is the movement of air. All things you say are factual, but if you can distribute heat across a larger area, such as the headers, apply insulation to the inside of panels, which again helps reduce direct heat and distribute heat across a larger area, then add some air movement, however minimal, maybe, just maybe there may be some successful reduction in perceived heat.

Since my wife perceives less heat and so do I, and the fact that there has been some increase in performance, and mileage, I would call that a success. I suppose that makes me a genius as you so well put it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Netminder]

That's because sometimes you have to take what science tells you and apply some reason, logic and testing to see what the final outcome is. Don't know what to tell you. You keep insisting I've accomplished nothing, because science says so and I keep saying I have, because my wife doesn't burn her legs and behind, since the change, so who are you going to believe.

The one thing the scientific facts you often quote don't take into account is the movement of air. All things you say are factual, but if you can distribute heat across a larger area, such as the headers, apply insulation to the inside of panels, which again helps reduce direct heat and distribute heat across a larger area, then add some air movement, however minimal, maybe, just maybe there may be some successful reduction in perceived heat.

Since my wife perceives less heat and so do I, and the fact that there has been some increase in performance, and mileage, I would call that a success. I suppose that makes me a genius as you so well put it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

:thumbup::thumbup::shemademe_smilie:

 

[Buttsy]

You mean I am not the only one?...........

 

[MidLifeCrisis]

You mean I am not the only one?...........View attachment 71840

Sorry bud, the title is mine. :roflblack:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[NancysToy]

I have failed to make even you understand the distinct and vital difference between thermal radiation and convection, and that convection not radiation is the real culprit and danger here and cannot be so easily stopped. Didn't anyone here take high school physics? Does anyone understand what convection is and how it works? The brake reservoir is sitting in a convection oven not a microwave or infrared oven. All that wrap and those shiny, thin shields will never stop or divert convection or conduction. Just because something looks as if it should work does not mean it will work. If I can't make someone as intelligent as you understand and back me up on this when lives may be at stake, I may as well give up. :banghead: Good Lord. By all means carry on with your "solutions" folks, you all seem to know more than me. If anyone dies, so be it.

I can only imagine several hundred years ago how difficult it must have been to try to make even intelligent people understand the world was round when everyone could very well see and knew damn well it was most certainly flat.

Ride safely everyone and the best of luck to you.

I fully understand the difference between radiation and convection. Both are involved here, and affect the rider and components differently. Changing how the heat is radiated will change the convection patterns, and changing the convection will also affect where and how some of the heat is radiated. They are inseperable in many ways.

You are blind to the fact that there can be acceptable results from halfway measures...even if the results are not perfect. You are screaming bloody murder about this, even though you don't have a 2013 and are not affected. It's time to lighten up with the insults and the condescending attitude. You have said your piece. Now let the affected owners look at the possible temporary solutions...and the pitfalls, and make the decisions for themselves. Nothing mentioned here can possibly make the situation worse, so they have nothing to lose but their time and money should they choose to continue to ride their 2013's.

This discussion has gone on long enough. Time to close the thread if it is going to get nasty.

 

[pro10is]

I fully understand the difference between radiation and convection. Both are involved here, and affect the rider and components differently. Changing how the heat is radiated will change the convection patterns, and changing the convection will also affect where and how some of the heat is radiated. They are inseperable in many ways.

You are blind to the fact that there can be acceptable results from halfway measures...even if the results are not perfect. You are screaming bloody murder about this, even though you don't have a 2013 and are not affected. It's time to lighten up with the insults and the condescending attitude. You have said your piece. Now let the affected owners look at the possible temporary solutions...and the pitfalls, and make the decisions for themselves. Nothing mentioned here can possibly make the situation worse, so they have nothing to lose but their time and money should they choose to continue to ride their 2013's.

This discussion has gone on long enough. Time to close the thread if it is going to get nasty.

Convection will continue to cause problems with the radiation blocked and no one's yet proposed any solution for convection, so no one has a solution. Period. Partial, unproven solutions are unacceptable when it comes to the possibility of losing all braking, especially when someone is proposing a potentially flawed solution to someone else who may believe they can continue to ride safely if they install it. Why can't anyone understand that and how can anyone possibly disagree when someone safety is at stake??? How would you feel about such advice after something happened? Someone needs to scream bloody murder when people are callously proposing such solutions to others who may innocently and naively believe them, because they do indeed have something to lose other than their time and money, their life. Play around all you want with your own bike but when it comes to a problem as serious as this, no one should be posting anything that could endanger anyone else's safety. That's my humble opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I tried to speak softly until I was mocked and insulted for my trouble so if I unintentionally offended anyone afterwards while trying to make people understand, well sorry, but someone had to talk straight. Everything I said needed to be said. I'm not interested in forum politics or popularity so I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks of me. I did my best to get my message across and if I potentially saved even one life because someone listened, it was well worth enduring the criticism.

Now that I have indeed said my piece and everyone has heard that they cannot ride safely without a proven solution, they are most certainly free to make any decision for themselves because now they have the facts.

 

[MidLifeCrisis]

Pro10,

This is obviously a forum for all to share their experiences and opinions. We're all adults and can decide for ourselves what to make of each argument. It really isn't about you trying to save lives, but rather to be right. I've watched many of your posts and regardless of the subject, be it Internet Explorer, heat wrapping, or whatever the topic of the day, you're right and everyone else is wrong. That just may be what rubs people here the wrong way.

I work in an engineering world. Too often the "big shots" say no way, can't be done, it's a total failure and will insist on their way, delaying projects and blowing smoke screens when an unsuspecting n00bie walks in and solves the problem. You have to go outside of what the book says sometimes to find solutions.

Everyone can test the results of their mods for themselves. We all know the risks.

 

[pro10is]

Pro10,

This is obviously a forum for all to share their experiences and opinions. We're all adults and can decide for ourselves what to make of each argument. It really isn't about you trying to save lives, but rather to be right. I've watched many of your posts and regardless of the subject, be it Internet Explorer, heat wrapping, or whatever the topic of the day, you're right and everyone else is wrong. That just may be what rubs people here the wrong way.

I work in an engineering world. Too often the "big shots" say no way, can't be done, it's a total failure and will insist on their way, delaying projects and blowing smoke screens when an unsuspecting n00bie walks in and solves the problem. You have to go outside of what the book says sometimes to find solutions.

Everyone can test the results of their mods for themselves. We all know the risks.

You're right, now everyone does know all the risks, but before I posted it was obvious that many did not.

We all believe we're right when we post our opinions aren't we. I'm no different, but I am outspoken and may indeed vehemently debate my point more than others when I know I'm right and I will not back down. If that rubs you or anyone else the wrong way then I'm sorry, but you can just skip over my posts if you like and simply ignore them, no one's forcing you to read them. I most certainly do not always believe everyone else is wrong, that's an inaccurate generalization on your part, and if you do read my posts you'll see I often support people whom I agree with even in debates. I am fair and honest but I do not suffer fools gladly so you better know your stuff backwards and forwards if you go up against me.

I have only about 900 posts here unlike the many thousands others have because I pick my topics very carefully and only post when I have something valuable to offer. If I post an opinion and someone disagrees with me I will continue to post until the discussion resolves itself. I will not back down when challenged, intimidated, or insulted. That's just the way I am and I make no apologies for that. I'm not asking anyone to like me but if you listen to what I say you may learn something valuable because I have much to offer from a lifetime of experience in high tech engineering.

This topic caught my attention because it seemed to me people were totally ignoring the very serious safety issue and I could clearly see some being persuaded that they could still ride safely with unproven mods. I strongly disagree and made my point known even though I knew it would be unpopular to try to tell anyone their mods were potentially flawed. As expected I was challenged but as I said I will not back down when I know I'm right. If I'm challenged I will respond, if not I'll stop, it's as simple as that. So if anyone wants me to shut up then simply don't debate me. I don't wish to get into an uncomfortable discussion with anyone. Lamont and Scotty are two of my most favorite and respected people here so believe me when I tell you it was very painful to have to respectfully disagree with them on this. Despite what you may believe I do in fact care deeply about people's safety. If you truly knew me in person you would discover that I am actually considered to be a really nice guy and the vast majority of people who know me genuinely like me. I'm sorry I can't convey that here but that's because you only see one side of my personality.

You mocked me in your post so I responded in kind but I genuinely hope you have or will find a full or partial solution to the burning legs problem and I was only half kidding when I said we would all be grateful to you if you did, I know I would be. But my debate was specifically about the serious brake issue and on that I'll give no ground, only a proven solution is acceptable when the potential of serious injury or death is possible. You are indeed all adults and like I said before, you now do have all the required facts thanks to the debate. So by all means make your own decision.

 

[Saluda]

Instead of hitting each other,

shouldn't we remember that BRP is the cause ? It seems that all these posts are because people care.

 

[Bob Denman]

HEY EVERYBODY!!
Pro knows his stuff about this.
Let's cut him some slack for that... :thumbup:
We don't have to agree with his assessment, but he's got the chops to be in this discussion... :2thumbs:

Now for my ccmpletely inexpert, dummy-on-the-street, seat of the pants, real World, OPINION pps::
If the rider and passenger are feeling less heat from these measures; it'll work until BRP can come up with a better option... (JMHO)
Now... ream me out, and give the guy some breathing room...

We sure don't need this turning into a knife fight in here... :shocked:

 

[Saluda]

My .02 cents

I'm not an engineer and this field is definately not job related to me but I'll make one comment. If someone is not feeling heat that they used to I would say the modification is working unless that heat was routed to another area where it could cause a problem or concern.
Hurry up BRP !