Anti Vibration system on RS

[BajaRon]

This is the same setup that BRP used on the RT model. It works OK there, although there were clearance problems with some installations that actually made the vibrations worse. If a person has a particular problem with vibration on their older RS, I would take a demo ride on an RT or 2011 RS before I made a decision on whether the new setup is worth the time, money, and (considerable) effort.

Clearance problems don't mean the torsion bar system doesn't work. They have to have zero contact except for the attachment points to be effective. Clearance is another issue altogether, but something to check into before converting, for sure.

And I agree, amount of improvement always has to be weighed against expense and effort for any modification. It isn't uncommon for a mod to render less than favorable results.

Still, it sounds like the relatively small amount of vibration created by the Spyder is a real problem for some, and this could be a possible solution for them.

But I believe there is more differences in the engine isolation system between the RT and the RS than just the torsion bars and 'improved' rubber inserts, isn't there? If this is true, just test riding the RT isn't necessarily going to give you an accurate read on what this chance will produce.

The only reason I would even consider this mod is if it stabilized the engine enough to make a meaningful difference in the countershaft sprocket to rear sprocket distance. And I'm not sure that is even an issue with the original setup.

To me, the engine vibration on my Spyder is a non-issue. Now the belt vibration can be annoying at times.

 

[NancysToy]

Clearance problems don't mean the torsion bar system doesn't work. They have to have zero contact except for the attachment points to be effective. Clearance is another issue altogether, but something to check into before converting, for sure.

And I agree, amount of improvement always has to be weighed against expense and effort for any modification. It isn't uncommon for a mod to render less than favorable results.

Still, it sounds like the relatively small amount of vibration created by the Spyder is a real problem for some, and this could be a possible solution for them.

But I believe there is more differences in the engine isolation system between the RT and the RS than just the torsion bars and 'improved' rubber inserts, isn't there? If this is true, just test riding the RT isn't necessarily going to give you an accurate read on what this chance will produce.

The only reason I would even consider this mod is if it stabilized the engine enough to make a meaningful difference in the countershaft sprocket to rear sprocket distance. And I'm not sure that is even an issue with the original setup.

To me, the engine vibration on my Spyder is a non-issue. Now the belt vibration can be annoying at times.

I don't know if the islolation an torsion bar arrangement is exactly the same, but there are enough other differences in the RT and RS to make the RT a second choice as far as a comparison, for sure. The different engine characteristics and the heavier weight of the RT would make it hard to judge head-to-head, but if a 2011 RS demo wasn't available, I would see if an RT was enough different to pursue the matter further.

 

[BajaRon]

I don't know if the islolation an torsion bar arrangement is exactly the same, but there are enough other differences in the RT and RS to make the RT a second choice as far as a comparison, for sure. The different engine characteristics and the heavier weight of the RT would make it hard to judge head-to-head, but if a 2011 RS demo wasn't available, I would see if an RT was enough different to pursue the matter further.

There are some definite ifs on this one. I'd like to see the system installed and compare it to the stock configuration. It is an interesting option, if nothing else.

 

[jedd]

Quick question when we torque or load the engine, which way does the engine twist, does it tighten the belt or loosen. Only reason I ask is if it tightens the torque rod would help pulley as Doc stated, if it loosens the rod would in theory allow you to run with a looser belt which would help pulley also?? I know this started as a vibration concern :roflblack: but this mod. brings alot of other side effects with it :chat:

Jim:thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

Quick question when we torque or load the engine, which way does the engine twist, does it tighten the belt or loosen. Only reason I ask is if it tightens the torque rod would help pulley as Doc stated, if it loosens the rod would in theory allow you to run with a looser belt which would help pulley also?? I know this started as a vibration concern :roflblack: but this mod. brings alot of other side effects with it :chat:

Jim:thumbup:

The affect of power transfer to the rear wheel from the countershaft pulley would be the major factor here and not engine torque (engine movement based simply on counter rotation of crankshaft spin).

In essence, when you apply power to the pulley, the top portion of the belt tightens and tries to drag the rear pulley into the front pulley. Which is exactly what would happen if there were no axle retaining the rear wheel.

So, power is forced through the belt to the rear pulley to the rear wheel and finally to the ground giving you forward accelleration.

I know you already understand this but if you apply just one more step the affect you're talking about becomes more clear.

Everything is bolted down, which is the only way you can get power from the engine to produce wheel spin. But as the front sprocket is drastically attempting to pull the rear wheel into itself, the rear wheel, by resisting this force, is also attempting to pull the front pulley rearward.

It is a tug of war. And as always, the weakest link will give first. In a perfect world, contact between the tire and the ground is the weakest link. It's called smoking your tire! :thumbup: (Much better than smoking your engine, smoking your clutch, etc.) :yikes:

Now if the engine were not bolted down, it would simply be jerked into the rear wheel when you applied power (not recommended).

Of course the engine is bolted down, but in a way that allows some movement. And this is the source of the question. There are rubber components between the engine and frame for vibration prevention. This does not prevent engine vibration, it simply keeps that vibration (some of it anyway) from reaching the frame where it travels to body contact points. Feet, butt and hands.

Since the engine can move, it will move. The engine will move rearward because of the pull of the rear wheel, and it will twist sideways (counter clockwise looking down on the engine), for the same reason because the countershaft sprocket is located at the left, rear corner of the engine.

There will also be a downward pull at the countershaft sprocket because of the rotational method of power transfer, and there will be an upward pull on the countershaft sprocket because the rear sprocket is above the plane of the front sprocket. Which of these two forces will prevail is for someone smarter than I to determine.

So, if I am correct (and that is always in question), the engine (at the countershaft sprocket) would move rearward and to the right (facing forward). And possibly up or down.

How much? I have no idea. Is it a problem? I doubt it.

Interesting subject though.

 

[Bullet24]

I demo'd the 2010 RT-S today and I noticed the engine vibrations were much more noticeable on the RT. I got on my RS to leave and the only really bad vibration was the usual belt vibration (cant wait to get the tensioner). Is this installed on the 2010 RT's? If so I would say it isn't helping too much. Or it is and they would be a nightmare without it!

 

[jedd]

Well said Ron your simple description did enlighten my understanding, as you said there is movement, is it a problem? Thats what makes this a interesting subject, Doc's points of relieving stress on counter-shaft pulley may be valid by your description, I don't know but it is interesting.:dontknow::dontknow:

Jim:gaah:

 

[IWN2RYD]

Just wanted to correct myself...

I was thinking about this thread as I was ryding from an appointment to my business... And paid very close attention to vibration(s) at various RPMs...

I stand corrected. I do have vibrations. But in only my feet mainly. I have no noticable vibrations in my hands what-so-ever ( the point of going WOW I have no vibrations off the handle bars sweeeeet)... Nothing to really be concerned about in my seat either.

However around 3700-5200rpms I do have a fairly good amount of vibrations in my feet. Anything above or below those RPMs and either the vibrations are gone or to rapid to notice them to any degree.

So I have to think if anything this anti-vibe system helps our hands only... :dontknow:


BTW... Love the info in this thread. The detail and delivery makes silly knuckleheads like me understand your view quite easily hyea::thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

Just wanted to correct myself...

I was thinking about this thread as I was ryding from an appointment to my business... And paid very close attention to vibration(s) at various RPMs...

I stand corrected. I do have vibrations. But in only my feet mainly. I have no noticable vibrations in my hands what-so-ever ( the point of going WOW I have no vibrations off the handle bars sweeeeet)... Nothing to really be concerned about in my seat either.

However around 3700-5200rpms I do have a fairly good amount of vibrations in my feet. Anything above or below those RPMs and either the vibrations are gone or to rapid to notice them to any degree.

So I have to think if anything this anti-vibe system helps our hands only... :dontknow:


BTW... Love the info in this thread. The detail and delivery makes silly knuckleheads like me understand your view quite easily hyea::thumbup:

When you are looking for vibration it really is much more noticeable. I guess like anything else.

Vibration is a wave form, similar to sound (which vibrates the air) or waves on the ocean.

Different mediums will transmit or subdue a certain wave size/frequency differently. In our case there are variables of, thicker metal, thinner metal, and proximity to the engine which all have an effect.

Normally, foot pegs are the worst offenders because they reside very close to the engine and are hard to isolate while retaining the necessary rigidity. I've ridden bikes that could virtually vibrate your foot off the peg at certain RPM's.

Manufacturer's usually put a lot of effort into keeping vibration away from hands and seat as these contact points are more sensitive to vibration. Plus you have the added insulation of rubber soled shoes or boots to help you with the peg issue.

 

[jedd]

:roflblack::roflblack:I have to apologize to Batmobile you had a very good question and still is a good question, my short opinion is if time and money allows give this mod a try. After the enjoyable exchange with BajaRon and others I'm confident this would do no harm at all and may help vibes and possibly other issues:2thumbs:

I apologize cause we (myself who started it) made this simple thing a technical debate, which has been alot of fun up till we hijacked your thread to the point where its been relocated to shop talk:roflblack::roflblack:

Oh I may do this also even if it only took 1 pound of lateral load off the countershaft it would be worth it. I feel our counter shaft bearing is at 90% duty cycle now, with mods that increase torque the bearing and pulley are over loaded.
:chat:


Jim:thumbup:

 

[docdoru]

I order the parts today (around $100). opcorn:

 

[jedd]

I order the parts today (around $100). opcorn:

opcorn:Hmmm:thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

I order the parts today (around $100). opcorn:

Maybe I should put that in a video episode! hyea:

 

[Batmobile]

I have been looking at BRP's new store online for the parts. http://parts.spyder.brp.com/Index.a...hf0efhk01&catalog_id=0&language_id=1&siteid=1
#35 Rubber Mounts $59.99
#46 Tie Rod Assembly $34.49
#50 Tie Rod Assembly $46.99
+ Misc. nuts & bolts
Reasonable enough, but my question is #34 Front Engine Support. It doesn't give a price for it and shows unavailable.

On the 2011 the Support has a flange along the top and side for the Tie Rod's to bolt into and I do not see it on the older models so I am assuming this has to be replaced too. :dontknow:

2011

2009

The Front Engine Support is #34 in both pictures. I went out and looked at mine and it doesn't have the flanges. Anyone know if this Support is available and how much it costs? Or am I looking at this wrong? It is a possibility, wouldn't be the first time. I am still interested in this and I appreciate all the great information presented in this thread.

 

[Raptor]

Yes I believe the support would have to be changed also. For the Spyder RS the 2009-2010 P/Ns for the front support is 707000452. The P/N for the 2011 front engine support is 707001072. It looks different on the parts fiche also...